**Spoiler - Regrets **

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I belive the incapacitation occured because Voldemort had the upper hand - maybe his wand pointed at Lily or Harry - Dumbledore could move but in doing so one of them would die ... as such Dumbledore was forced to just stand there and talk ...
I still like the premise of Dumbledore being there - and would explain why he had the cloak if indeed he was there - would be a nice little clue would it not?
And didnt JKR say that was one of the questions she was never asked ... maybe I am mistaken ...
But having that cloak ... and her comment about 'No - it was not Snape under the cloak' ... just screams the possibilities!
 

christina

Time Turners
yea the possibility of dumbledore bein incapacitated is an idea i like alot.it explains alot, such as how dumbledore had the cloak.but if dumbledore was incapacitated the words he said in the cave must have been others or possibly his own thoughts.-just a thouught.
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
Can you really see Dumbledore being incapacitated, if he didnt want to be?.
If Dumbledore was at the potters, his own sense of doing the right thing, and judgement, he would have more likely told the potters to escape with Harry while he duelled with Voldemort, than be immobilised and forced to watch.
Also, if Dumbledore was there, why did Hagrid bring him ( Harry ) to the dursleys, and not Dumbledore himself? surely the safety of a baby would have been paramount to Dumbledore? ( oh,..Ill just leave him for Hagrid to pick up? Yeah right ).
Also, we know that if a person is immobilised, the magic ceases to operate if they ( the caster ) are dead, James was killed at least 2/3 minutes before Lily, wouldnt Dumbledore have intervened in that time?.
Sorry, I just cant see Dumbledore at Godrics hollow on the night the potters were murdered. Not at all. And Jo herself has said Snape wasnt there. Maybe Regulus was hiding there, under the invisibility cloak, and the potters o.k.ed it because he was Sirius' brother?. Who knows.....
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
If Voldemort had a wand pointed at either of the Potters - Dumbledore would have known any move he made to save one would probably result in the death of the other - as such I belive he could have been left in a position where he was 'check mate' - i'm not saying he was paralysed more that he knew the next physical move he made would have resulted in a death ...
I'm just throwing idea's out here but that regret he was muttering is significant - and I relly believe it is linked back to that fateful night!
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
You are determined to believe he was there arent you!. Well, I dont know I just dont see it. I understand what you are saying, and even if D.D. was under an invisibility cloak, we know D.D. can see through them, so I imagine Voldemort would be able to too. If Voldemort killed James and then discovered Dumbledore there with Lily and Harry, its possible that D.D. was placed, as you say, in a checkmate position, but what then?, who made the first move?, if voldemort killed Lily, Dumbledore would have got him straight away, wouldnt he?, and, at that time, Harry was a marked baby, almost as good as dead, but D.D. had heard the full prophecy, so he wouldnt have been too concerned for Harry would he?....
Too many " what ifs..." for me.;)
 

Arwan

Time Turners
I think I remember something I heard or read that on the night the Potters die that there was someone else there, perhaps it was Dumbledore via the time turner.and it is his panicked memory of not being able to stop voldermort and perhaps snape was able to bring dumbledore back before voldemort could kill him and this is why he trust him!
 

Rubeus

Time Turners
I'm sorry to do this ,and i know i shouldn't ,but shall we take a moment to campare what DD is saying here to what snape was saying to DD in the arguement earlier. HBP pg. 405 "Well--- I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he--- Snape didn' wan' ter do it anymore---" Now i know this spec is in other threads but once again i have to say that the 2 things are really close in context so we raise the question again. Is DD really dead?
 

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
I agree with secret seeker - I don't get your point either, Rubeus.

Very generally, though, I must say: Guys, get a grip. I was also very sad about DD's departure - but we must accept that he's gone. JKR has said so, and she also confirmed that "he's not going to do a Gandalf" (those were her words, AFAIR), so forget about reappearances. DD is in his frame on the wall of the headmaster's office, and that's where we're going to see him - or maybe visiting in some other frame somewhere else. But never again in real life, as sad as that is.
 

Arwan

Time Turners
I would seem that this should be a memory of Dumbledores particularly when he starts cowering, but this does not suit a man of his strength and stature who see death as the next great adventure. I think he is being force feed someone else's painful memory perhaps RAB and that event is what made him turn on Voldemort and go after the Horcrux in the first place.

Well rereading that part in the book I came across something Dumbledore said once they returned to the shore "One alone could not have done it" which leads me to believe who ever RAB is he had to have help, so someone out there knows what happened.
 

serophis

Time Turners
I think I see what you're saying...that Dumbledore and Snape had a plan, that would make Snape do something he would not want to do but was necessary.

I don't think that means Dumbledore is still alive though...I think that it is Snape's job to kill a dying Dumbledore (DD saying death is not to be feared makes it seem like he has spent a lot of time lately thinking about his own death), cementing Voldy's belief that Snape is on his side...such that at the very end, Snape can turn on him and defend Harry in some way.

I think that Snape will come back at the very end and knock Voldemort off guard. But whether you believe he is good or not, another question:

Do you think that Snape can survive the end of Book Seven?

I mean, he has killed Dumbledore. So say he is evil: He will be the most hunted death eater ever (providing Harry wins).

Or say he is good: Even if he and DD did have a plan, and even if he saves Harry's life at the end, he will seem as if he is simply lying to save himself, and weasel out of going to azkaban like he did the better part of two decades before. There is no redeeming him in the eyes of the wizarding world (or the Ministry for that matter), so even if he is good, I don't see a way for him to survive.

So what do you guys think? Whether Snape is good or evil, does he stand a chance of surviving past the final chapter of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows?
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
Not unless theres some concrete evidence that Snape had been working to bring down Voldemort the whole time, like a handwritten letter by Dumbledore explaing to the M.O.M. why Snape did what he did, might not justify murder, but would be seen as a bit of recompense.

Snape's a goner, I think. However, I do feel for him, coz he is what he is, by circumstance, and previous experiences.
Im not standing up for him, I think he did wrong and should be punished, but, at the same time, maybe if he is loyal to Dumbledore, he too realised the sacrifices needed to bring down Voldemort at all costs.
 

serophis

Time Turners
Yeah, it does seem that Snape's life is pretty much over in the near future. I think this is why he was so offended at being called a coward by Harry: He would likely spend the next hundred years being smeared and having his name run down by every good wizard who ever lived; he was the man who almost destroyed the wizarding world as we know it by killing the most beloved wizard, his own supposed friend.

I think they both realized this before it happened, but I think that Snape's initial reluctance and urge to turn back from the plan reflected on his hopes that they could find a better way, where Dumbledore manages to survive.

As far as a handwritten letter from Dumbledore, or even his picture itself trying to exhonerate him, this may be a possibility. However, I think that Jo may be setting Snape up to be the tragic sacrificial hero who may get recognition, but not until his death.
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
I am inclined to agree with some of the other posts that Dumbledore was reliving a very painful memory. We don't really know anything about his family other than that his brother likes goats...

Did something happen to his family that he indirectly caused?

My other thought is maybe he feels totally responsible for Voldy's rise to power. After all it was him who brought him to Hogwarts. He kept a watch on him but maybe he feels he didn't do enough to prevent Tom from becoming Voldemort.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
There has to be an underlying reason why Dumbledore took on the good fight against Voldemort and before that Grindelwald.
Perhaps he was having a flashback to an event when he was younger - but I am still betting it has to do with the Potters ;)
 

Jenelle

Supreme Mugwump
I have always assumed that dumbledore was at the potters invisible, voldemort came and killed james, then lily, tried to kill harry and he was just there watching. He knew that since voldemort knew the prophecy that it had to be fulfilled and he had to mark harry as his equal. LV had to mark the one that would finish him in the end(although LV didnt know that part but DD did) So dd let lv kill the potters knowing that he would not be able to kill harry because he only could mark him as equal and have powers the dark lord has not. So when he drank the potion I think that he was re-living what he was thinking that night, and wishing that it didnt have to be that way-he could have stoped lv when he was young but didnt, and now a baby has to loose his parents and either grow up to be a murderer or be murdered...
On a nother note I like the RAB being an inferi post. And I dont think this has anything to do with the thread but you can message me with the answer...I was gone for a while and I cant seem to figure out what the DiE theory is?....Please help... :)
 

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
I have always assumed that dumbledore was at the potters invisible, voldemort came and killed james, then lily, tried to kill harry and he was just there watching. He knew that since voldemort knew the prophecy that it had to be fulfilled
:eek:

I couldn't disagree more.

You are saying that Dumbledore stood by while two of his close friends were murdered? In my opinion, this is downright impossible. Such scheming coldbloodedness, for whatever higher purpose, can never have been Dumbledore's attitude.

Remember what Snape told the sisters about him: "He has to believe the best of people." (Chapter 'Spinner's End'). - But if somebody is as cynical and heartless as you take Dumbledore to be, he'll never think other people are less selfish than he himself is.

Re your question at the end of your post: The "DiE" theory would go along nicely with your post ;-) "DiE" stands for "Dumbledore is evil". :cool:
 

Jenelle

Supreme Mugwump
Sir Cadogan,
No No No I dont think that DD is evil LOL! I just think that he knew he had to do it for the wellbeing of mankind....or atleast wizardkind. Thanks for letting me in on the secret of the DiE. :)
 

Dr Winterbourne

Time Turners
I side with the theory that the potion forces you to relive your own worst memory; what you feel most guilty about.

I think that it is Dumbledore being forced to face - emotionally - the Machivellian decisions that he made in order to defeat Lord Voldemort.

Dumbledore is aware of the prophecy. He knows that it must be Harry (or Neville) that defeats the Dark Lord, and thus, he would, in cold blood, like a good general, allow others to die.

But perhaps he was not truly ready to actually see it happen - there in Godrics Hollow that night - possibly under the cloak, possibly not, he saw something which he rationalised as being necessary. But a part of him feels the weight of that choice.

So he deserved to die.
 
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Arwan

Time Turners
Thought #1

This is Dumbledores memory, but I believe it is from when he was young.
Perhapes he idolized Grindlewald thinking he was the greatest wizard of that time, when he realizes that Grindlewald is evil and tries to remove himself from the situation, at which time Grindlewald tortures young Albus and forces him to watch his family beening killed. This is why he spent the rest of his life fighting evil eventually defeating Grindlewald and becomes obsessed with defeating Voldemort.
This being his biggest regret for believing Grindlewald at the cost of his family and vowing to never let evil regine again.

Thought #2

Same as above except that in that time Dumbledores parents were the ones fighting Grindlewald, and as a child he witnessed their death. Then vowing revenge on Grindlewald. His regret is his of obsession to destroy Grindlewald that lead him to become a killer.
Sounds like a certain Dark Haired, spectacled, scarred boy we know!
 
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