**Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OK - Chapter knowledge is desired on this on - more the part when Dumbledore show's Harry his last meeting with Voldemort ...

As I read this 'meeting' between the 2 I saw a great deal of things - but Dumbledore left this with a question - and indeed I ask you all it now ...

Why did Voldemort want to return to Hogwarts?

Dumbledore concludes both in the meeting and later to Harry that Voldemort did not want to DADA job ...
I, personally am not so sure ... notice how Voldemort behaves once he knows that the DADA job is off the table and not an option ... he ends the conference and leaves ...
And as concluded - no-one was able to stay in the DADA job for more than a year from that point forward ...

So - tell me your thoughts on this small piece of HBP - how do you see both Dumbledore and Voldemort in this dialogue?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

After Harry viewed the memory with Dumbledore of Voldemort's return to Hogwarts, Dumbledore told him in fact, Voldemort did want the DADA job, but he did not reveal what he, Dumbledore, thought Voldemort's true purpose was for wanting a place within the school until after Harry collected the memory from Slughorn that made Dumbledore's knowledge of the Horcruxes complete.

Horcruxes - HBP, pg. 505 US

"I cannot answer for whether he ever managed to find anything of Ravenclaw's. I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe."

Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case.

"Do you think that's why he really wanted to come back to Hogwarts, sir?" said Harry. "To try and find something from one of the other founders?"

"My thoughts precisely," said Dumbledore.


Clearly, Dumbledore thought Voldemort was after those items he thought would make the best Horcurxes - magical trophies to complete his collection of items that had belonged to the four founders of Hogwarts. Voldemort's request for the teaching position was simply a way to get his foot in the door so he'd have time to take the remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
 

Tonks

Unspeakable
Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

My thoughts on this were pretty much on target with Forte's - however, I have to wonder how on earth he thought he was going to be able to find some such artifacts. I doubt Voldemort knew about Gryffindor's sword, especially since it wasn't discovered until after he tried to get the teaching job. Did he know about it before then, though, and hope to find it before anyone else did?

Were there possibly other secret hiding spots of the other founders, something like the Chamber of Secrets for Helga, Godric, or Rowena? They probably wouldn't be as well know as the Chamber because I doubt they would keep a terrible monster in theirs - so as such perhaps nobody ever looked for them because only a select few knew they existed. Why would Voldemort think that he had the abilities to find such artifacts when nobody else for a thousand years did?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Re: **Spoliers Lord Voldemorts Request **

As you can imagine - I dont agree ...
I really think he believed that Dumbledore was going to give him his shot at DADA teacher - he was declind in the past because of age - but now he was older and wiser ...
If his progative was to get access to these objects - then why did he leave as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job?
I mean - I can see your point - but if he really wanted these things to complete his Horcrux - he would have made more of an argument or indeed more force into getting in there ...
I think he genuinly wanted to be at Hogwarts as a Prof - the fact he lost the plot and could no longer tell how far from reality he was - well he couldnt see it ...
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I think if he wanted to just look for relics hidden in the castle, he wouldn't have cared a lick if he got the job or not. Still, no one other than him knew where the Chamber of Secrets was, nor could they get in there. Once in the castle he could hide out in the chamber, and use the pipes etc. to do all the searching he wanted. Riddle really did want that job for some reason, could it be the same reason Dumbledore held out so long with Snape? this really needs some thought!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
That is kinda my point - if he was just trying to get his hands on prized Hogwarts items - I am sure he would have tried everything in his arsenal ... but all he seemed to want to know was if he could become the DADA teacher ...
You know the curse he put on the job goes to show how much he really wanted to be there and in the job ... he left right away - not making an attack on Dumbledore or anything once he realised it was never going to happen.
I think he saw Hogwarts like a home - he related to it in a way like he had never felt like in the past and saw the DADA job as a great goal and a way he could always be about ...
His warped mind was already meaning he lost the plot - and although everyone knows he would never be allowed to teach ... he still felt like he would have been able to!

Um, excuse me! Did we read the same chapter? :p

Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 440 US

"The locket maybe," said Harry, "but why take the cup as well?"

"It had belonged to another of Hogwarts's founders," said Dumbledore. "I think he still felt a great pull toward the school and that he could not resist an object so steeped in Hogwarts history."

I don't think Voldemort wanted the items as a sort of walk down memory lane. Basically, I think Voldemort wanted the items because they had a magic of their own and the point of Dumbledore showing Harry the memory was to show how deceptive Riddle/Voldemort was and what he was willing to do to get what he wanted:

pg 444 US

"My friends," he said, after a moment's pause, "will carry on without me, I am sure."

"I am glad to hear that you consider them friends," said Dumbledore. "I was under the impression that they are more in the order of servants."

"You are mistaken," said Voldemort.

"Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them - Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaiting your return? Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post."

There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however, he rallied almost at once.

"You are omniscient as ever, Dumbledore."

"Oh no, merely friendly with the local barmen," said Dumbledore lightly.

There are several points to go off on in this quote, but I will try to stick to the topic ;)

Obviously, the DADA position was open at the time or why would he have applied for the job! Why would he go to a job interview with his cronies sitting down the street in a bar if he was actually serious about getting the job? Dumbledore already knew that the Death Eaters were not Voldemort's friends - they were his servants when he was still at Hogwarts and took on the name of Lord Voldemort. He simply wanted his foot in the door so he could get those remaining items he needed for his Horcruxes.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
How the heck do you draw such sweeping conclusions - it baffles me!
I read that three times to see how you could jump to such conclusions - still it fails me ... :rolleyes:

Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away? :rolleyes:
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
Voldemort, at the time he was in that office had many opportunities to do anything he wanted - force Dumbledore's hand the whole lot ... but he didnt ...
He asked for the job - they dialogued for a bit - then it became clear from the conversation that Dumbledore wasnt going to give him the job - what did Voldemort do ... he got up and left ...
Geez I mean - if there was prizes there that would seal his horcruxes in a manner that made them stronger than anything else - would he just walk away? :rolleyes:

Voldemort was not going to challenge Dumbledore as he was afraid of him.

Lord Voldemort's Request - HBP, pg 446 US

For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone.

This was after Dumledore had finished telling Voldemort he couldn't force him to pay for his crimes as he did at the orphanage after he found the stolen items in the wardrobe. Not that the thought of a confrontation with Dumbledore hadn't crossed his mind, but he knew better in the end. He walked away because he knew he had no other choice! ;)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
This is interesting actually ... did you get the feeling at that time Voldemort feared Dumbledore?
Interesting because I thought they seemed amicable and comfortable ...
This leads me to 2 thoughts ...

1. Whatever happened to make Voldemort fear Dumbledore happend later
2. Riddle had grown with this silent fear of Dumbledore based on when he was a child

I'll be honest - I really dont think that fear was present in Voldemort - he didnt seem edgy, worried or anything ...
Also the lack of anger - that was another telling point here - we all would have expected Voldemort to call the odds out to Dumbledor before leaving - he didnt - he just left .. as soon as he knew he wouldnt get the job ...
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I believe some of what made Voldemort fear Dumbledore happened in that office at the time of their meeting. Voldemort is a control freak - a type of sociopath - he likes to be in control and bend others to his will no matter what it takes to get what he wants. People who have socipathic traits don't like other people to see through them and see what they really are, and what they are really up to.

Voldemort thought he was being so sly by visiting Dumbledore for the job, yet was taken aback by the fact that Dumbledore knew so much about what he, Voldemort, had been up to since he left the school. He knew about the Death Eaters and the fact that they were sitting in the bar waiting for him to finish his interview.

As I said, sociopaths do not like for someone to find out the truth when they are trying to paint a rosy picture of things and cover up what they are really up to. They need to be in control and they will lie, cheat or steal to get the outcome they desire. I think that fits Voldemort perfectly and would account for his fear in Dumbledore as he has always been able to read Voldemort and see through his facade.
 

Piper

Time Turners
HTML:
As I read this 'meeting' between the 2 I saw a great deal of things - but Dumbledore left this with a question - and indeed I ask you all it now...Why did Voldermort want to return to Hogwarts

Being Defense of the Darks Arts Professor would have been a great way to convert more Death Eaters
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
You know I thought of something else on this...JKR showed us this meeting between Dumbledore and Voldemort for many reasons as there are many specific bits of information in the vision. I think it too might have been our first glance at exactly why Voldemort feared Dumbledore, and it relates to my previous post. Dumbledore spent much of his time trying to find out exactly what Voldemort was up to. Even when he, Voldemort, tried to be discrete, Dumbledore was there in his business - that's very unnerving for someone who likes to keep his business private.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I think Riddle really did want the job. As said before, Hogwarts was his only real home. . . ever. I know I even get a "homey" feeling if I go visit one of my old school buildings (I allways love school) and I had a home of my own, so I can see him wanting the job there. (of course I can see him being behind what caused the job to be open as well! :eek: ) I do think he was mad at not getting it, and may well have reflexivly gone for his wand, but thought better of it.

As I said before, If he only wanted to search for relics, once in the castle, just go to the chamber to stay and use the pipes etc, to look for things hidden in the Castle.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See with SPF once again ...
Once Voldemort was inside - are we sure he couldnt have slipped Dumbledore?
Also - notice he arrived unescorted ... that might suggest he walked into Hogwarts and to Dumbledore with no-one controlling his movements ...
Why didnt he just nick off to the Chamber?
Also - after he left - Dumbledore didnt follow him ... he could have gone anywhere ...
Really - I think he wanted to be back at the one place he called home in a position that would have made him feel like he really achieved something - I'm not saying he was the right man for the gig - the first time he killed someone would have put stop to that - but in his mind - he saw nothing wrong in all he had done - and went for the job thinking he stood a chance ...
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
See with SPF once again ...
Once Voldemort was inside - are we sure he couldnt have slipped Dumbledore?
Also - notice he arrived unescorted ... that might suggest he walked into Hogwarts and to Dumbledore with no-one controlling his movements ...
Why didnt he just nick off to the Chamber?
Also - after he left - Dumbledore didnt follow him ... he could have gone anywhere ...
Really - I think he wanted to be back at the one place he called home in a position that would have made him feel like he really achieved something - I'm not saying he was the right man for the gig - the first time he killed someone would have put stop to that - but in his mind - he saw nothing wrong in all he had done - and went for the job thinking he stood a chance ...

First off, we don't know what happened when Voldemort left the office because Dumbledore immediately pulled Harry out of the Pensieve. We didn't see what Dumbledore might have done next - maybe he took one of his invisible strolls through the school. ;)

Dumbledore offered Voldemort a drink - if in fact Gryffindor's sword was in the office at that time, which we were never shown, how do we know what type of spell would be required to make it a Horcrux? Might Voldemort have been able to cast the spell when Dumbledore's back was turned mixing drinks? Gryffindor's sword is already a magical object so another spell placed upon it might not be noticed.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I would have credited Dumbledore as feeling 'something' if that was the case :p
Interesting because I also noted that ... it seemed Harry came back rather abrubtly after Harry noticed Voldemort fiddling with his wand - then leaving the office ..
I wonder if there is more to that vision - I just cant see Voldemort being allowed to walk around Hogwarts on his own ... another thread maybe :p

Back to Voldemort's request I suppose - and the fact I still feel he really wanted that job ... nasty Dumbledore :p
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
Dumbledore and Tom Riddle said:
The Dumbledore behind the desk showed no sign of surprise. Evidently
this visit had been made by appointment. "Good evening, Tom," said Dumbledore easily. "Won't you sit down?" "Thank you," said Voldemort, and he took the seat to which Dumbledore had gestured — the very seat, by the looks of it, that Harry had just vacated in the present. "I heard that you had become headmaster," he said, and his voice was slightly higher and colder than it had been. "A worthy choice."
"I am glad you approve," said Dumbledore, smiling. "May I offer you a
drink?" "That would be welcome," said Voldemort. "I have come a long way." Dumbledore stood and swept over to the cabinet where he now kept the Pensieve, but which then was full of bottles. Having handed Voldemort a goblet of wine and poured one for himself, he returned to the seat behind his desk. . "So, Tom ... to what do I owe the pleasure?"
Voldemort did not answer at once, but merely sipped his wine. "They do not call me 'Tom' anymore," he said. "These days, 1 am known
as —" "I know what you are known as," said Dumbledore, smiling, pleasantly. "But to me, I'm afraid, you will always be Tom Riddle. It is one of the irritating things about old teachers. I am afraid that they never quite forget their charges' youthful beginnings." He raised his glass as though toasting Voldemort, whose face remained expressionless. Nevertheless, Harry felt the atmosphere in the room change subtly: Dumbledore's refusal to use Voldemort’s chosen name was a refusal to allow Voldemort to dictate the terms of the meeting, and Harry could tell that Voldemort took it as such. "I am surprised you have remained here so long," said Voldemort after a short pause. "I always wondered why a wizard such as yourself never wished to leave school."
"Well," said Dumbledore, still smiling, "to a wizard such as myself, there can be nothing more important than passing on ancient skills, helping hone young minds. If I remember correctly, you once saw the attraction of teaching too."
"I see it still," said Voldemort. "I merely wondered why you — who are so often asked for advice by the Ministry, and who have twice, I think, been offered the post of Minister —"
"Three times at the last count, actually," said Dumbledore. "But the
Ministry never attracted me as a career. Again, something we have in
common, I think."
Voldemort inclined his head, unsmiling, and took another sip of wine.
Dumbledore did not break the silence that stretched between them now, but waited, with a look of pleasant expectancy, for Voldemort to talk first. "I have returned," he said, after a little while, "later, perhaps, than Professor Dippet expected . . . but I have returned, nevertheless, to request again what he once told me I was too young to have. I have come to you to ask that you permit me to return to this castle, to teach. I think you must know that I have seen and done much since I left this place. I could show and tell your students things they can gain from no other wizard."
Dumbledore considered Voldemort over the top of his own goblet for a while before speaking.
"Yes, I certainly do know that you have seen and done much since leaving us," he said quietly. "Rumors of your doings have reached your old school, Tom. I should be sorry to believe half of them." Voldemort's expression remained impassive as he said, "Greatness
inspires envy, envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies. You must know this, Dumbledore."
"You call it 'greatness,' what you have been doing, do you?" asked
Dumbledore delicately.
"Certainly," said Voldemort, and his eyes seemed to burn red. "I have
experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed —"
"Of some kinds of magic," Dumbledore corrected him quietly. "Of some. Of others, you remain . . . forgive me . . . woefully ignorant."
For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage.
"The old argument," he said softly. "But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore."
"Perhaps you have been looking in the wrong places," suggested
Dumbledore.
"Well, then, what better place to start my fresh researches than here, at Hogwarts?" said Voldemort. "Will you let me return? Will you let me share my knowledge with your students? I place myself and my talents at your disposal. I am yours to command."
Dumbledore raised his eyebrows. "And what will become of those whom you command? What will happen to those who call themselves — or so rumor has it — the Death Eaters?"
Harry could tell that Voldemort had not expected Dumbledore to know this name; he saw Voldemort’s eyes flash red again and the slitlike nostrils flare.
"My friends," he said, after a moment's pause, "will carry on without me, I am sure."
"I am glad to hear that you consider them friends," said Dumbledore. "I was under the impression that they are more in the order of servants."
"You are mistaken," said Voldemort.
"Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them — Nott, Rosier, Muldber, Dolohov — awaiting your return?
Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post."
There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however, he rallied almost at once. "You are omniscient as ever, Dumbledore."
"Oh no, merely friendly with the local barmen," said Dumbledore lightly. "Now, Tom . . ."
Dumbledore set down his empty glass and drew himself up in his seat, the tips of his fingers together in a very characteristic gesture.
"Let us speak openly. Why have you come here tonight, surrounded by henchmen, to request a job we both know you do not want?"
Voldemort looked coldly surprised. "A job I do not want? On the
contrary, Dumbledore, I want it very much."
"Oh, you want to come back to Hogwarts, but you do not want to teach any more than you wanted to when you were eighteen. What is it you're after, Tom? Why not try an open request for once?"
Voldemort sneered. "If you do not want to give me a job —"
"Of course I don't," said Dumbledore. "And I don't think for a moment
you expected me to. Nevertheless, you came here, you asked, you must have had a purpose."
Voldemort stood up. He looked less like Tom Riddle than ever, his
features thick with rage. "This is your final word?" "It is," said Dumbledore, also standing.
"Then we have nothing more to say to each other."
"No, nothing," said Dumbledore, and a great sadness filled his face. "The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom. ... I wish I could. . . ."
What I got from this conversation, is that Voldemort was mad because once again, he failed because Dumbledore stood in the way. I think Dumbledore was right, Tom knew that Dumbledore wouldn't let him teach at Hogwarts, especially after everything he already knew about Tom; changing his name, the Death Eaters, all his experiments with the Dark Arts. Tom went there so he could be at the school, because it would be easier for him to get objects that were 'steeped in Hogwarts history' if he were a teacher. If he did want to teach at all, it wasn't because he missed the place, or he felt more at home there; it was because he would be able to train followers younger, no other reason.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I'm with Wheezy.

Voldemort could increase his power by being in charge of young innocent minds. If he had gotten the job he could have had a lot of power, not only over the students, but possibly the teachers as well. The Imperius Curse would come in handy on the other teachers, and Voldemort would have ready access to the Chamber.

I don't think he was that chuffed at not getting the job, he was upset because he couldn't manipulate Dumbledore and Dumbledore knew way more about Voldemort's activities since he had left the school then Voldemort thought anyone should or would.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think what Voldemort planned to do if he got the job is irrelevant here ... I mean it doesnt take Einstein to see his methodology ...
I was a lot more interested why Voldemort went back to apply - I really think he thought he stood a chance .. and that interests me in a few ways - mostly his mental state back then.
He wasnt at the edge - he was told by Dumbledore in the end NO - and he just left - if he was really out there by that time, I think he would have done something - anything!
There is no denying that Dumbledore un-neved him - once again that isnt the point of debate either - but what was is that he really believed Dumbledore might take him back.
If you look at how he is described at that time - I think he was into his experiements but not fully emersed - I wonder if a smarter and cleverer Dumbledore could have perhaps tried to turn Voldemort around based on his still apparent fear of him and also extensive knowledge.
I cant explain it - it just seemed like this was Voldemort's last act of co-operation - from this point forward it was all about himself ... I cant help but feel Dumbledore had a small piece in what Riddle became ...
 
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