**Spoilers Lord Voldemorts Request **

bajab

Time Turners
He may still of been thinking about completing Salazar Slytherin's "noble" work of keeping magical learning within all-magic families .
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Blaise said:
I cant explain it - it just seemed like this was Voldemort's last act of co-operation - from this point forward it was all about himself ... I cant help but feel Dumbledore had a small piece in what Riddle became ...

Now, I just don't buy that Blaise. I think Dumbledore knew that at that point "Tom" was already beyond help. . . could you bring yourself to hire someone to work with children that you may have suspected no longer had a whole soul? Don't forget the changes in appearance that he had gone through.

Dumbledore said:
The time is long gone when I could frighten you with a burning wardrobe and force you to make repayment for your crimes. But I wish I could, Tom. ... I wish I could. . .

This makes it pretty plain, Dumbledore knew that Tom was beyond help at that time, that he had already become what he was going to become. This also shows that Dumbledore honestly wished he could have done something to help save him, but couldn't . . . not wouldn't.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Sirius Potter Fan said:
Now, I just don't buy that Blaise. I think Dumbledore knew that at that point "Tom" was already beyond help. . . could you bring yourself to hire someone to work with children that you may have suspected no longer had a whole soul? Don't forget the changes in appearance that he had gone through.
Dumbledore had more insight into Riddle/Voldemort's life than from just this moment - all those years previous - even as far back as when he really could make Riddle listen - like in the Orphange ... ;)
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
I would just like to point out here that JKR has said that if we need to know something, Hermione or Dumbledore says in the books, so if Dumbledore says he doesn't think that Voldemort ever wanted the job, I think it's most likely that he didn't.

He may have wanted to be in the castle, to research Horcruxes, or perhaps to find things to turn into more horcruxes, or perhaps to recruit younger followers, we don't know. But did he really want to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts? For some reason, I think not! Most evil guy ever, wanting to teach possible protege's of his how to defend themselves against whatever he plans? Don't see it happening...

Anyways, on to why I think Voldemort went back to apply. It was a power thing. Dumbledore was the only one that was never charmed by Tom while he was in school, he never really trusted him as the other teachers had. Now, he has gone out and tested himself beyone any other; pushed the boundries of the Dark Arts further than any other, and he wanted the power to be shifted. He wanted to go back and be the one in control, and he saw from the moment (and I think he knew the answer to his question at that moment as well) that Dumbledore called him Tom and not Voldemort that there wouldn't ever be a power shift until Dumbledore was dead and gone.

And about Voldemort not doing anything, Harry wants to yell out and warn Dumbledore because he is positive that he saw Voldemort's hand twitch towards his wand. It is highly likely that though he remained calm on the outside, he was raging on the inside and had to reign himself in and wait until the time was right for Dumbledore to die. We know that Tom/Voldemort has always been cold and calculating, even from the time he was a child, why would he be any different as a young man?

Also, I have to disagree that this was Voldemort's last act of cooperation. I think his last act of cooperation was when he returned the items he stole from the other children at the orphanage. After that, he refused help when going to Diagon Alley, and as Dumbledore notes, there were several nasty incidents while he was at school, including the death of Moaning Myrtle. I am pretty sure that killing another student with a giant beast would not be seen as an act of cooperation...

And again, JKR has said that it has always only been about Voldemort himself, he has never loved or cared for anyone else, never had friends; only followers and enemies.

And of course Dumbledore had a part in what Tom became. He was the one that Tom wanted to be like, only in the exact opposite, if that makes sense. He wanted the power, the respect, the loyalty. But his ideals were not that of openness, understanding, love, and acceptance and that is why he can never succeed. He will always be striving towards something that is unattainable to him...
 
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Prongs

Time Turners
If Voldemort is Harry Potter's horcrux, that would definitely be to Harry Potter's advantage. Lord Voldemort could not just kill him without somehow destroying Harry's horcrux within himself. Also, I think that James’ death served to create a horcrux of Lord Voldemort that Harry Potter keeps. I must assume that this was unintentional due to the attempted use of the Avada Kedavra curse upon Harry Potter that night and the repeated attempted murders of Harry throughout the series.

What would be the result of this exchanging of souls? Well, I think Lord Voldemort is going to kill Harry Potter. Then, due to the horcrux, Harry Potter would still be alive within Lord Voldemort. Thus, I can only hope that somehow Harry Potter will be able to extract his half-soul from Voldemort before Voldemort is killed. Then again, I think it would be more likely that it would be Harry Potter who sacrifices himself knowingly, so that Lord Voldemort can be killed. I think Harry would do so out of his sense of duty to Professor Dumbledore, to his parents, and to the wizarding world.

From http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theburrow/aj01.shtml
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
Folks,

Could it be that the final horcrux is Dumbledore's wine goblet?

We all suspect that LV was trying to get the job posting as a way of getting near one of Gryffindor's artifacts, e.g., the sword. We also know that Dumbledore was a great wizard (very great...the only one LV ever feared).

In the scene, we have the quote:

"For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand. ..."

Could it be that Voldemort was actually pocketing the goblet as a spur-of-the-moment substitute? The "...and his wand" part could have been the perfect way of subtly hiding this clue. In fact, I read this chapter countless times before I made this connection.

If so, then:
A) This clue is still available to Harry, since Dumbledore's memory had been extracted and stored.
B) Dumbledore explained to Harry that he had other theories as to what Voldemort was up to in that scene, but never had time to elaborate. Perhaps Dumbledore was on to this horcrux theory.
C) The wine glass was explicitly referred to as a "goblet". We've had the Goblet of Fire, and now another potentially serious goblet reference.

What do you think? This is really bugging me and the rest of my family. OH, and where could the goblet have gone?

P.S. It may also be notable that a wine glass is mentioned in the sentence following Tom Riddle's question to Slughorn about what a horcrrux is. Strange coincidence.
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting ... very interesting ...
My first thought would be - would that have been significant enough to be a horcrux item to Voldemort - we know he chose his objects because they also meant something to him - with this act I could only surmise he was just being reckless, I mean a goblet can break the whole lot but maybe the thrill of sealing a horcrux right under his nose would be worth it ...
I mean there is a huge amount of significance to this part of the story - on face value it would suggest the last, almost amicable discussion between Dumbledore and Voldemort ... but things don't ring true here ... Voldemort was up to more and that significance pinned to the 'twitch' towards Voldemort's wand just screams 'take note'!
I do still believe Voldemort's arrogance lead him to believe Dumbledore may have granted him the position but it is also possible it represented his last chance to get in Hogwarts unopposed and to maybe seal or place a Hogwarts horcrux?
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
I've been burrowing about trying to find references to other goblets, wine glasses or such.

We should note that Dumbledore drinks from a "goblet" in the cave, albiet one that he seems to conjur up himself. It wasn't sitting by the basin waiting for him. Oddly, JKR opens the paragraph with "Almost absentmindedly, ..." (p. 568). Could this be a connection to Dumbledore's having missed this clue in his stored memory? I'm almost certainly reading in too much here.

But along those lines... We also have the mention that the wine that Voldemort was offerered by Dumbledore in Lord Voldemort's request as having been on the shelf now occupied by the pensieve. Would that also be where Dumbledore stores his vials of memory? Was the goblet there too? A strangely coincidental replacement.

Well, given that we'll be waiting for the next book months and months, we might as well speculate like mad.

I should go back and look through the bits about Kreacher and see if any other goblets turn up...
 
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gbogbo

Time Turners
As per "would that be significant enough to be a horcrux item to Voldemort...?" That is the heart of the matter, really.

It is worth noting that this is the conversation where the two are hinting at what Voldemort has been up to:

" "You call it 'greatness', what you have been doing, do you?" asked Dumbledore delicately. "Certainly,", said Voldemort, ... "I have experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed -" "

then, after Dumbledore eludes to to the power of love we have:

"For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage."

Could that look have been from the moment it dawned on him to take the goblet? Maybe the conversation with Dumbledore turned him from his initial quest (for one of Gryffindor's artifacts) toward getting even with Dumbledore, who was clearly besting him at every turn.

Wish I knew...
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
You know what - I am gonna seize this post in two ways - one a reply and one in a new thread - so hope you don't mind!

You could be right - perhaps his intentions was to secure the job and then use the time to pick the right object for a horcrux, to seal and conceal an object in a place he loved so much ... realising that this was probably the last ever chance he would get to be in Hogwarts unchallenged - perhaps in his desperation he broke his resolve and sealed a horcrux there and then!
Not sure about anyone else - but I like that!
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I am going to be honest here and say, no, there is no base to it.
All the pointers from JKR suggest otherwise.
That goblet meant no significance to Voldemort. Then the theory about him stealing it while talking to Dumbledore? why? why risk such a crucial process in front of the wizard he feared most? I can define every single thing in Dumbledore's office as a horcrux with that theory. But logic is not suggesting so.
:D
 

gbogbo

Time Turners
I'm not arguing that Dumbledore's goblet meant anything to Voldemort at the time he entered the room. I'm guessing the Voldemort's original intent was to gain access to something of Godric Gryffindor's.

The conversation could be construed as presenting a direct challenge to Voldemort and his horcrux pursuits. Given the dominance relationship between the two, I am surmising that Voldemort had an "aha" moment when we have the passage "For the first time, Voldemort smiled." I think that at that very moment Voldemort was thinking "We'll just see who's right...I'll show that $%#*@" and it dawned on him that using one of Dumbledore's artifacts would be the perfect symbol of that proof and a sort of revenge.

I don't think the horcrux objects themselves had to have been special to their owners in order for them to be important to Voldemort. Come on...a cup?, a locket? What was critical was the importance of the owner. Dumbledore and Voldemort had a very crucial relationship: one in which Dumbledore was clearly dominant and paternal. This really clearly chafed Voldemort. I think part of Voldemort's psyche was molded by the need to best Dumbledore, and his horcrux theory versus Dumbledore's love theory was the basis of this psychological battle.

Yes, anything in Dumbledore's office could have been a horcrux using this logic, but the object mentioned explicitly in this scene is the goblet, nothing else at all ... and then the scene ends with a twitch toward Voldemort's pocket. We also have wine goblets/glasses showing up in other critical passages (1) when Tom Riddle asks Slughorn what he knows about horcruxes, (2) it is what Dumbledore conjurs up to drink the liquid in the basin in the cave in order to obtain a horcrux, (3) and, of course, the goblet of fire.

Here's another thought along this vein:

Could the real horcrux in the cave have been Dumbledore's goblet? What if R.A.B. got the real horcrux, but then ended up in the water with the Inferi? We know that R.A.B. took a real horcrux and left a fake. We suspect that R.A.B. is under the water with the horcrux based on the results of Harry's attempt to accio the horcrux and seeing a body come briefly out of the water. And...it could be construed that whatever the "thief" was meant to use to drink the liquid in the basin was missing. Dumbledore had to conjur one up. That could be totally meaningless...or not.

But hey, we've got to entertain ourselves with outlandish ponderings for a few more months. So what's the harm?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See to add to that - I do think it would make Voldemort smile to know one of his horcruxes was stashed away in one of the safest places in the wizarding world.
He may have had to compromise somewhat but as gbogbo said - to have concealed a horcrux in a location we all know would serve to fit Voldemort's mindset and under the nose of his biggest adversary ... then thinking on, imagine Dumbledore keep tracking down those horcruxes - removing then but finding Voldemort is still immortal and all because of an object in his office ...
Even if this isn't the case - I really like it because it almost mocks Dumbledore the same way RAB was hoping to mock Voldemort ...
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I'm not arguing that Dumbledore's goblet meant anything to Voldemort at the time he entered the room. I'm guessing the Voldemort's original intent was to gain access to something of Godric Gryffindor's.

Is that goblet mentioned Godric Gryffindor's? I didnt read it anywhere. Because only known artefact left of him is the sword. It has been discussed in another forum here, but I think we can agree on that.

The conversation could be construed as presenting a direct challenge to Voldemort and his horcrux pursuits. Given the dominance relationship between the two, I am surmising that Voldemort had an "aha" moment when we have the passage "For the first time, Voldemort smiled." I think that at that very moment Voldemort was thinking "We'll just see who's right...I'll show that $%#*@" and it dawned on him that using one of Dumbledore's artifacts would be the perfect symbol of that proof and a sort of revenge.
But hey, we've got to entertain ourselves with outlandish ponderings for a few more months. So what's the harm?

We all like to think that Voldemort was there to achieve something other than the job of DADA. Dumbledore tells Voldemort too, that for once make a straight request, and dont make a fool of others by showing that he wanted the job.
You see arrogance of Voldemort didnt think this ahead of time. Voldemort was extremely surprised by the knowledge of DD. Voldemort was clearly stumped by DD's calmness despite of knowledge of all the horrors Voldemort had commited.
He did have an AHA moment. But not because he was able to fool DD, but because he was outplayed by DD.
Hey, your assumption is fair and nice. Who am I to refuse it's rightness? I am just another bloke here throwing few of my own ponderings. :D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See, I think Voldemort's arrogance would have him thinking there was no way Dumbledore knew what he was up to as well - as such he went for the job, realised it wasn't going his way and still wanted to have something of him left at Hogwarts - realising Dumbledore knew as much as him - he knew this was his last chance to get into Hogwarts easily and as such - I think he may have been a little more reckless than we would expect!
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
well, I cant deny that. that is very possible.
I just have a feeling that something definitely happened there. But it was not creation of a horcrux (remember, the theory about horcrux creation late after the murder is still up for debate. I dont know about others, but I disagree with that theroy). I would like to bring thoughts of our fellow member here, Vold.E.Mort. He put it precisely.
All the talk about a non important things to Voldemort being Horcruxes or even people being his horcruxes sound just too non-JKR. It sounds a bit reaching and cheesy.
I definitely will not deny HIAH. Because things happened that night are not described properly. we can debate there.
Your point about him being arrogant makes a huge sense. Kudos to that one.
But, him being rackless is something I would like to debate. Voldemort is not brave. He is cunning. He doesnt pick fights in open. And He certainly wouldnt pick one in DD's office. Not when he just got his behind kicked with some soft treatment by DD. :D
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
That is what I think too.
He was there to find something he could relate too.
Something valuable, or something he left behind.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
All the talk about a non important things to Voldemort being Horcruxes or even people being his horcruxes sound just too non-JKR. It sounds a bit reaching and cheesy.
I definitely will not deny HIAH. Because things happened that night are not described properly. we can debate there.
Your point about him being arrogant makes a huge sense. Kudos to that one.
But, him being rackless is something I would like to debate. Voldemort is not brave. He is cunning. He doesnt pick fights in open. And He certainly wouldnt pick one in DD's office. Not when he just got his behind kicked with some soft treatment by DD. :D
Hey I agree - Voldemort would seem to plan his horcruxes to great detail - but then understand that this was his last possible stab ay adding a horcrux into Hogwarts - something he had planned for and indeed wanted to do - he would have seized the opportunity to do so if he finally realised it was no or never...
Would he have been happy sealing any random object? Heck no but he would have been happy he sealed one in Hogwarts and under the nose of Dumbledore.
And for the record, I agree - that would mean any object in his study could be a horcrux and could complicate matters a great deal - which is why if this theory is to stand we need to look at JKR's words and look for a repeated reference to an object - the goblet would seem to fit ...

That is what I think too.
He was there to find something he could relate too.
Something valuable, or something he left behind.
Kind of like the above - if his overall desire for this horcrux or a horcrux was to have it at Hogwarts - I dont think the object mattered as much as the location - perhaps sometimes the object isnt the most important thing but the location - it would still follow the same patterns no?
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
I cant see any object in d.d. office being a horcrux, d.d. would know, he "taught Tom riddle, he knows his style", and magic leaves traces as d.d. said, and a Horcrux is a powerfully magical Dark object that d.d. would have felt/ seen.
Maybe Voldemort was looking for more Horcruxes, maybe, just maybe, he made the school a Horcrux?. You can't deny its not possible. However, I cant see d.d. not knowing about it. Be ironic though, wouldnt it?, and I think Riddles " taught leer " was more of frustration at d.d. for being " omniscent as always ".
Dumbledore would not allow Riddle to dictate the terms of the meeting, right from the off, that must have p****d him off, not getting what he wanted. I strongly agree there is more to that memory than d.d. showed Harry, we can see that from the way they left the memory, and I dont think d.d. wanted harry to see it, or, thought it was of relevance.
 

Glumbumble

Time Turners
I think that Dumbledore is right that Tom did not expect to get a teaching post at the school and, indeed, he was not attending an interview. Although Dumbledore knew that Tom would be calling and may have guessed that Tom might wish to discuss the job we read;

Dumbledore stood and swept over to the cabinet where he now kept the Pensieve, but which then was full of bottles. Having handed Voldemort a goblet of wine and poured one for himself, he returned to the seat behind his desk. . "So, Tom ... to what do I owe the pleasure?"

Dumbledore and Tom had not met to discuss the DADA post.

I think that Tom wished to discuss the option of teaching at Hogwarts mainly to learn how much Dumbledore knew about the things he, Tom, had been doing. I am sure that he would have liked to return to Hogwarts not only because of the opportunities of finding relics of the founders but also for finding places to hide relics once they had been made into Horcruxes but he knew it was unlikely.
Hagrid told Harry that there was no safer place than Gringots, except Hogwarts, and for someone who additionally could open the Chamber of Secrets it would be difficult to find somewhere safer.
If I were to consider any creature that we have been introduced to in the series that I would feel safe in making into a Horcrux it would have been the Basilisk, well before CoS that is.
As, perhaps, the most prominent Gryffindor we have be told of Dumbledore was the most likely to have a Gryffindor relic in his possession.
In terms of relics of Godric Gryffindor, Dumbledore says that there was only one known, the sword, but we also know of the sorting hat, which JKR has said is not a Horcrux.
If I were a betting man I would put money on the brass knocker to Dumbledore’s office being a relic also.
They rose upward in circles, higher and higher, until at last, slightly dizzy, Harry saw a gleaming oak door ahead, with a brass knocker in the shape of a griffin. He knew now where he was being taken. This must be where Dumbledore lived.
In fact if you were asked to describe Dumbledore’s office door, when lined up with other doors, you might describe it as the “Griffin Door.” The knocker would be the “Griffin Door Knocker.” We do know how JKR likes to play with words. As with many of JKR’s clues the Griffin door knocker was introduced early in the series, CoS, received one mention in GoF (just as a brass knocker), but received at three mentions in OotP and one mention (just as a brass knocker) in HBP.
 
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