The Cave

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
I am reading this chapter now in HBP. Thie part where Dumbledore drinks the potion to get to the horcrux always puzzles me a bit...

I am a bit curious as to if the potion in the basin eventually fills back up itself or did RAB replace it with something else or something similar? I mean in the case of RAB why bother even filling it back up after he got what he came for? Just leave a note there that says "ha-ha Voldy got a piece of your soul!" And how on earth did RAB even know it was a locket in the basin? He brought one with him to replace the one he took. Weird...

Any speculation out there?
 

Morfin Gaunt

dumbledores army
im not sure how or why the potion refilled but maybe he didnt take a locked with him, he just transfigered something in to a locket. is there a transfiguration time limit
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
interesting idea on transfiguring something else into a locket . . . don't think we have ever been told about a time limit on transfiguration spells. . .

We have discussed the potion's properties at length on another thread, but have no solid answers, just various different opinions, but a refilling charm on the potion seems to be the going consensus.
 

happy_hannah

Time Turners
most interesting, in the latest W.O.M.B.A.T test there was a lot of talk of turning animate objects into inanimate objects and vice versa, perhaps a clue? we know slughorn turned himself into a armchair people can turn into animals, polyjuice potion etc, maybe the fake locket was originally something else
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
OMG!!! HH you just made me think of something . . . I used the same logic as you on the WOMBAT question, We have seen animate beings, people and animals, turned into inanimate objects. What if RAB never left the cave at all . . . once the infiri started coming at him, he jumped up onto the basin, and transfigured himself (still in possesion of the real locket) into the fake locket. My fist thought though is to question the size factor. but if a human can become a small rat, I suppose size isn't a factor in the transformation.

Another thing that bothered me . . . Dumbledore was not in a weakened state yet when they first arrived at the basin, and he made a point earlier that he could sense magical concealment (he mentioned it both during a lesson, and in the cave. Which made it so surprising to me that he didn't seem to know the locket was a fake. You would think that he would have sensed that there was no Horcrux present in the basin before atempting to drink the potion . . . another option? . . . before we doubt Dumbledore more . . . Dumbledore did indeed still sense magical concealment, and once the locket was in his hand he even sensed that it was a transfigured person.

The more I think about it . . . Dumbledore had to have been to the cave previously . . . even though he may have known the location of the cave, it seems strange that he would have been so familiar with finding the archway, boat etc.

An alternate thought too, perhaps RAB did not transform himself into the locket, but transformed the locket itself into different locket, added the note, and surmised that Voldemort upon seeing the different locket and note would himself destroy it in anger? (what a wonderful irony!)
 

notposs

Time Turners
Dumbledore didnt sense that it was a fake because it wasnt even there to begin with remember... it appeard after all the stuff was drunk, it wasnt in the bottom of the basin.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I am reading this chapter now in HBP. Thie part where Dumbledore drinks the potion to get to the horcrux always puzzles me a bit...

I am a bit curious as to if the potion in the basin eventually fills back up itself or did RAB replace it with something else or something similar? I mean in the case of RAB why bother even filling it back up after he got what he came for? Just leave a note there that says "ha-ha Voldy got a piece of your soul!" And how on earth did RAB even know it was a locket in the basin? He brought one with him to replace the one he took. Weird...

Any speculation out there?
Actually that is interesting - what you are saying makes sense ...
Not only did RAB get through to the locket and extract it - he must have left and come back again to replace the locket!
There would appear to be little to suggest he knew in advance that the horcrux concealed was the locket - as such, someone would have had to replace it ... and this lead weight to a second person being in attendance does it not?
I suppose this also set's another light on the liquid - was Dumbledore telling the truth when he believed the liquid would kill him?
I think it was made to prevent the person from drinking it by disabling them and if they did mange to swollow it all they would have had to drink the water in the lake - and thus the inferi .... I'm just wondering if it really was meant to kill anyone?
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
Thats true too Alz. If you are bogged down from the potion and then you let loose the Inferi, your chances of getting out alive are slim at best. Adds more weight to whoever went to get the horcux had a hand. (and had to be pretty smart)
 

horcruxfinder

Time Turners
Perhaps RAB, who was a death eater, knew it was the locket and knew of Voldemorts plan to hide it. He took Kreacher with him - Kreacher not having too much magical power to disturb the balance in the boat. He drinks the potion takes the horcrux, replaces it with fake locket, and makes his way back to #12. There, either he dies of the potion or LV comes and kills him. Kreacher is left with the real locket - either horcrux or as shell of destroyed horcrux. What do you think of this as a possible scenario??
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
I like that scenario.

Kreacher would have to keep the secret and we did see a locket at 12 Grimmauld Place.

Perhaps RAB if he is Regulus kept a watch on Voldy and saw what he was doing and made a plan to rid of at least one horcrux.
 

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
I like it, too - with one exception: Somehow Kreacher appears to be way too stupid, obnoxious and false to be trusted on such a mission. I know a couple of years have passed since then, but ...
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Sir Cagogan said:
I like it, too - with one exception: Somehow Kreacher appears to be way too stupid, obnoxious and false to be trusted on such a mission. I know a couple of years have passed since then, but ...
agreed. I think Kreacher woud not be the most trustworthy to use on such a mission. House Elves can disclose information if they want . . . they just have to punish themselves afterward. Can't help but wonder if maybe Snape went along, he definately knows his potions!
 

horcruxfinder

Time Turners
Yes, but Snape would be too big - magically - to fit into the boat with RAB. We need someone magically small - like Harry as an underage wizard. Who else is possible? Any theories?
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
First . . . if RAB is indeed the Regulus Black that is Sirius' brother, then, Snape may well have still been underage at the time, so a possibility still. As far as others . . . well, since we have been told that we have at least been introduced to all characters that will appear in the last book, it won't be someone new to the scene. What we know . . . Regulus was Sirius' younger brother but not how much younger, and died young, so that, along with the hint in RAB's note that he knew of the prophecy "meet your match" places things around the time of or just before Harry's birth. Although that might preclude Snape from being underage, it may not rule out RAB himself as being underage. If it was RAB that was underage, then there are numerous possibilities to choose from. I think we can assume that RAB's assistant died in the cave or shortly afterward, had they lived I think they would have come to DD with the information when Voldemort came back to power.
 

Dr Winterbourne

Time Turners
I don't have HBP with me at present, but does anyone remember if any of the Inferi are descibed individually? That could possibly be RAB or their alleged accomplise.

If RAB were underage, and Snape was there, then an interesting line of speculation arises.

If Snape went, then it was to destroy a horcrux, which presumably means he is good.

But if he is good, why would he send Dumbledore on a fools errand?

That means, if Snape was there, he is evil, (or doesn't trust Dumbledore. Let's ignore this possibility - it messes up my logic).

Okay, so if Snape destroyed a horcrux, and isn't good, then it could be because he has designs on the being a Dark Lord himself. I think he believes the prophecy, actually does think that Harry could kill Lord Voldemort, which is why Harry's ill-discipline frustrates him so much.

After Harry has disposed of the Usurper, Snape is in a position to rise to the throne himself. He knows he can beat Harry. He once labled himself 'Prince' - they even named a book after that nickname. Could this be a clue to his plans?
 
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Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
None of the inferi are described individually. All we hear about are "a white hand", "a face beneath the surface", while DD and Harry are crossing the lake. And when they attack the two, the inferi are only referred to as grabbing, staggering, stepping over the body in front of them etc.

On your idea (RAB & Snape destroyed the horcrux in the cave): Well - what if Snape never mentioned the horcrux in the cave but told DD about a different one? Maybe DD himself discovered the cave and thought it safer to try this hiding-place than the one Snape had told him about.

On second thoughts: I don't think RAB took Snape with him. Aren't we told that in the beginning, Snape really was a Death Eater because he liked it? This would exclude him from such excursions, I'm sure.

However, I agree with what you say about Snape's ambitions. I also think that he would be one to enjoy being powerful and dreaded. ;-)
 

Susan Sloan

Time Turners
The clues to the Cave are prior to the visit of Dumbledore and Harry. Read back to where Hagrid is telling Harry et al about overhearing Dumbledore speaking to Snape in the Forest, after Ron drank the tainted drink Slughorn gave him -- the bottle was intended for Dumbledore.
I think Dumbledore KNEW all along Snape was going to 'kill' him. I do not think Dumbledore will return, but Snape will be vindicated. I really hate to say this, but I am beginning to think Dumbledore beliving in Snape might be a real bit all along. We all hate Snape; but I am beginning to think he might -- just MIGHT -- be 'good.' The Unbreakable Vow is OK too, since Snape knew all along he would do the deed.
 
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