The Elder Wand

[frodobaggins]

Re: Hallows or Horcruxes-A Plot Muddled? (SPOILERS!)

was jk trying to say having all of 3 of the hallows would make you immortal??

and also if the elder wand was unbeatable as it said in the book many times how did dumbledore defeat grindewald in the duel???

and all three hallows were mentioned before book 7.....we just never knew it was DD wand

----------------------------------

*Edit* Copied from another threat to discuss the Elder Wand. Now Go. -Tonks

 

[Tonks]

Re: Hallows or Horcruxes-A Plot Muddled? (SPOILERS!)

and also if the elder wand was unbeatable as it said in the book many times how did dumbledore defeat grindewald in the duel???

This is what I could come up with on the subject:

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"Years passed. There were rumors about him. They said he had procured a wand of intense power."

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"I think he knew it, I think he knew what frightened me. I delayed meeting him until finally, it would have been too shameful to resist any longer. People were dying and he seemed unstoppable, and I had to do what I could."
"Well, you know what happened next. I won the duel. I won the wand."

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 35 - King's Cross

"Maybe a man in a million could unite the Hallows, Harry. I was fit only to possess the meanest of them, the least extraordinary. I was fit to own the Elder Wand, and not to boast of it, and not to kill with it. I was permitted to tame and to use it, because I took it, not for gain, but to save others from it."

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 21 - The Tale of the Three Brothers

"So the Elder Wand," said Harry quickly, before Hermione could retort, "you think that exists too?"
"Oh, well, in that case there is endless evidence," said Xenophilius. "The Elder Wand is the Hallow that is most easily traced, because of the way in which it passes from hand to hand."
"Which is what?" asked Harry.
"Which is that the possessor of the wand must capture it from its previous owner, if he is to be truly master of it," said Xenophilius. "Surely you have heard of the way the wand came to Egbert the Egregious, after his slaughter of Emeric the Evil? Of how Golelot died in his own cellar after his son, Hereward, took the wand from him? Of the deadful Loxias, who took the wand from Barnabas Deverill, who he had killed? The bloody trail of the Elder Wand is splattered across the pages of Wizarding history."

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Ch. 21 - The Tale of the Three Brothers

"We've already got an Invisibility Cloak," said Harry.
"And it's helped us rather a lot, in case you hadn't noticed!" said Hermione. "Whereas the wand would be bound to attract trouble --"
"Only if you shouted about it," argued Ron. "Only if you were prat enough to go dancing around, waving it over your head, and singing, 'I've got an unbeatable wand, come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.' As long as you kept your trap shut --"
Yes, but could you keep your trap shut?" said Hermione, looking skeptical. "You know, the only true thing he said to us was that there have been stories about extra-powerful wands for hundreds of years."
"There have?" asked Harry.
Hermione looked exasperated: The expression was so endearingly familiar that Harry and Ron grinned at each other.
"The Deathstick, the Wand of Destiny, they crop up under different names through the centures, usually in the possession of some Dark wizard who's boasting about them. Professor Binns mentioned some of them, but -- oh, it's all nonsense. Wands are only as powerful as the wizards who use them. Some wizards just like to boast that theirs are bigger and better than other people's."

I get the feeling that the wand is one of intense power, but that it CAN be beaten. How else would it be able to pass from master to master? The wand is only passed on when its first master is defeated... which we know happens BECAUSE the wand passes down.

I'm not sure whether Dumbledore won it because he intended to stop the death and destruction it caused, or whether he was simply more skillful and won the duel.

Thoughts? More quotes?

 

[serophis]

I don't think that on their own any of the Hallows were invincible. However all three items were immeasurably strong, and anyone who united them all would be quite powerful.

As a boy, a young, inexperienced Dumbledore was taken in by the legend. As a man, however, he understands that nothing and noone is invincible or unbeatable.

In the end of the book, I believe, he talks of how the items were really probably not Death's Hallows, but just three very powerful items made by very powerful wizards.

 

[George]

Well - I'm thinking that although the Deathly Hallows do not make you immortal, each grants you a very specific power that extends your life beyond what one may call "ordinary boundaries".

Dumbledore was 150, and was only slowed down by the curse on the ring, which gave him another year. Before that, however, he looked perfectly at ease and in good shape for 150. Perhaps the each Deathly Hallow extends life so that it seems, to those around, that its possessor is immortal, even though they only live longer.

Dumbledore, having also been in possession of the cloak, was further aided by that.

On the subject of the Elder Wand, Dumbledore said he was more skilled in magic than Grindelwald. Perhaps Grindelwald grew boastful and began to lack regard by the time Dumbledore fought him. If disarmed, Grindelwald would have lost the duel, full stop. And Dumbledore would have won the wand. The Elder Wand is not unbeatable; at least, it doesn't look like it. It is a myth, based on faulty knowledge and incorrect speculation, much like the statement that the Resurrection Stone would bring back people from the dead, when it only raises a shadow of their former selves.

 

[frodobaggins]

i think i have to agree that all the hallows were extremely powerful magical objects that got the legend because they were so strong.

that also means that the oldest in each of harry's family would have been very old due to owning the cloak which gave them long life

 

[Fortescue]

I took all the information about the Elder Wand to mean that whoever possessed it could be defeated. Taking into account Dumbledore's explanation, and then Luna's father's, it seems that the wand can be trained by the bearer and it is a deadly magical object in the wrong hands. But I got the idea that its power was geared more toward good than evil uses. If Grindlewald had the wand and he and Dumbledore were evenly matched magically, the only difference in them was the fact that Dumbledore was trying to do what was right and that is why he won. Dumbledore said that only one in a million could control all three of the Deathly Hallows as they were intended. As throughout the story, it seems that the wand would be more powerful in the hands of someone with a good heart and good intentions. We know Harry has a big heart and Dumbledore really did, too.

The stone is lost in the forest, Harry has the cloak, and the wand, well, who knows what might happen to that. But it seems that maybe Harry is the one who could control them, but chooses not to.

The history of the wand given to the trio by Xenophilius told of the evil, betrayal, and deceptions involved in the wands history. All the previous owners were greedy, evil men who took the wand in one violent act or another so they could be more powerful. But Dumbledore owned the wand for many years. He did not kill with it and he did not kill to get it. I would assume that the he was training the wand in a different way than it had been trained by its previous owners. The fact that Harry planned to lock it back away for safekeeping was the best thing to do.

Although, it also left an opening for a continuing story should some other evil wizard come along and try to find it again. There were quite a lot of openings left at the end that could easily lead into another series. Well, that might just be wishful thinking, but I can't imagine JKR just leaving it all the way she did.

 

[Piper]

The fairy tale said that the first brother asked for a wand that must always win duels for it's owner, and he was not defeated in a duel, but had his throat slit as he lay drunk, and the wand was taken by his killer, but not in a duel.

So I was thinking that maybe if the first brother had all three, the wand, the cloak and the stone, THEN he could not have been killed.

But then Dumbledore said that he defeated Grindewald, in a Duel, and won the Wand.

So who knows if having all 3 items would have mattered either?

I think since Dumbledore didn't kill Grindewald, only defeated him, that it might have been better to have said, in the fairy tale, that the owner of the elder wand could not be KILLED in a duel, but it says the wand must always win the duel for the owner.

 

[happy_hannah]

The fairy tale said that the first brother asked for a wand that must always win duels for it's owner, and he was not defeated in a duel, but had his throat slit as he lay drunk, and the wand was taken by his killer, but not in a duel.

So I was thinking that maybe if the first brother had all three, the wand, the cloak and the stone, THEN he could not have been killed.

But then Dumbledore said that he defeated Grindewald, in a Duel, and won the Wand.

So who knows if having all 3 items would have mattered either?

I think since Dumbledore didn't kill Grindewald, only defeated him, that it might have been better to have said, in the fairy tale, that the owner of the elder wand could not be KILLED in a duel, but it says the wand must always win the duel for the owner.

i was thinking on this as well, wondering how dumbledore could have won the duel if grindelwald had the unbeatable wand, then i realised the wand only performs for its true owner if they beat the previous one, and i realised grindelwald didnt beat gregorovitch in a duel for the wand, he mearly stole it from him.

 

[Rory]

I think the real answer was given by DD. The 3 brothers Ignotus created 3 very powerful objects. The fairy tale is just that. They did not get the objects from Death hence the wand was not unbeatable, just very powerful. The first owner didn't lose it in a duel, he had his throat slit and the wand stolen. Grindelwald stole it from Gregorovitch, as he was able to take it from him, he won. DD won it from him, because he was the more skilled. The trick comes in when Draco disarms DD. In that moment DM defeats DD, and the wand becomes Draco's. LV never defeated Draco, hence the wand doesn't recognise him. But Harry DID defeat Draco, so LV's AK curse only killed the part of himself in Harry, not Harry.

 

[Jimenem]

I think you're exactly right. Three objects all very powerful were crafted by three extraordinary wizards. The fairy tale was obviously an embellishment, not to be taken word for word literally.

 

[Piper]

Ok, I looked this up and Grindewald had STOLEN the wand from Georgovitch, so Grindewald was never a TRUE master of the wand, he had it, but it never worked for him as the wand would have worked for a true master, just like it never worked right for Voldemort, because he was not the true master, so Grindewald lost the dual to Dumbleodre, who became a true Master.

So it looks like it's possible that the wand never really ever lost a duel for a true owner. Dumbledore was disarmed of the wand, by Malfoy, but you have to remember that Dumbledore was not trying. Remember how calm he was during the whole thing with Malfoy, it was as though he knew all he had to do was say the word, and he would have been in control of that situation again. I think it's safe to assume that Dumbledore would not have allowed Draco to kill him that night regardless.

She has Dumbledore say that it was probably all a fairy tale, but she doesn't break with what the fairy tale said in the story, which is that a true master of the Elderwand can never be beaten in a duel.

I also believe that posessing all three items would make a person immortal if they wanted to be immortal.

 

[Jimenem]

Ok, I looked this up and Grindewald had STOLEN the wand from Georgovitch, so Grindewald was never a TRUE master of the wand, he had it, but it never worked for him as the wand would have worked for a true master, just like it never worked right for Voldemort, because he was not the true master, so Grindewald lost the dual to Dumbleodre, who became a true Master.

There's still an issue . . . if that was the case DD would have had to defeat Gregorovitch before the wand gave it's allegiance to him. NOT Grindlewald.

As for the possesion of all three items making you immortal, I disagree. I only believe they would be handy in surviving many things, but ultimately unnless you have the P/S Stone, you cannot survive time.

 

[Piper]

It can't be that you have to always defeat the last true master of the Elder wand to win it's allegiance, because no one could have defeated the very first master, because he was dead, so it has to be that you only have to win a duel fair and square with the one in posession. Or else the wand would have only ever been a normal wand after the first Master was killed.

Unless it is that if the last true owner is dead, then you can defeat the thief and get the wand. We don't know that Georgovitch was a true master, in the story, it is unknown how he go the wand. The true master could have died for all we know, Georgovitch could have caught him sleeping and cut HIS throat lol.

 

[Jimenem]

It can't be that you have to always defeat the last true master of the Elder wand to win it's allegiance, because no one could have defeated the very first master, because he was dead, so it has to be that you only have to win a duel fair and square with the one in posession. Or else the wand would have only ever been a normal wand after the first Master was killed.

Unless it is that if the last true owner is dead, then you can defeat the thief and get the wand. We don't know that Georgovitch was a true master, in the story, it is unknown how he go the wand. The true master could have died for all we know, Georgovitch could have caught him sleeping and cut HIS throat lol.

I tend to disagree. I believe that in order to earn the alliance of the wand you must win it or TAKE it. Stealing it works just as well, I think, as long as the wand was not GIVEN, it's allegiance will change with each possessor. But it must be TAKEN from the one who owns it rightfully.

 

[Rory]

I also believe that posessing all three items would make a person immortal if they wanted to be immortal.

DH, American ed. pg.720:
DD to Harry "You are the true master of death, because the true master does not seek to run away from Death. He accepts that he must die...."

So no immortality.

 

[Piper]

Jimenem,
If you can have the allegience by stealing it, why was Dumbledore able to beat Grindewald in the Duel when Grindewald had the Elder Wand?

 

[happy_hannah]

hermione mentioned that professor binns talked about the wand in class, i wonder if we skimmed over any of that in previous books?

 

[Fortescue]

hermione mentioned that professor binns talked about the wand in class, i wonder if we skimmed over any of that in previous books?

Well, since all the books are in Harry's perspective, and we know how much he and Ron paid attention in Binns's class, we can only assume that if the ghostly teacher said anything about the wand, the information did not make it into Harry's perception of things or his notes.

 

[Jimenem]

Jimenem,
If you can have the allegience by stealing it, why was Dumbledore able to beat Grindewald in the Duel when Grindewald had the Elder Wand?

Because there's nothing apart from the fairy tale that suggested that the elder wand was impossible to beat. Plus while Grindlewald was schooled at Durmstrang, Dumbledore had a more well rounded education. It would have been a pretty even match. Don't underestimate DD's cunning.

 

[Piper]

I don't underestimate Dumbledores cunning, I just think that Grindewald faced a situation much like Voldemort, in that the wand would not work properly for him in a duel, because like Voldemort, he had stolen it.
Dumbledore did mention that the fact that he did not want the wand for personal gain weighed in on his relationship with the wand. Harry did not want it for personal gain either, but he wasn't even aware that he had won it at the time that he won it.
If it is that the wand can be stolen, and Mastered, would Harry have been willing just to return it to Dumbledore's toom? Actually being as he only had to disarm Draco to become the master, I don't get Harry's plan to just return it to the toom anyway. Especially like someone here mentioned, with Ron foaming at the mouth over it....