The Helping hand and debt repaid?

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Ok - was listening to the GoF chapter when Harry battles Voldemort, then gets back to Hogwarts - and I have some thoughts ...

We have debated a lot about who changed the portkey etc ...

Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...
Then remember who goes and gets Harry's wand before Harry battles Voldemort?
Also remember where the portkey is in conjuction to the wand ...
Each of those spirits that came out was telling Harry what to do - and also what he had to do when the wands broke apart.

I submit for consideration it was Wormtail that did it - he changed the porkey - he also did something to Harry's wand that allowed him to battle Voldemort - outside of the effects of the brother wands effect on each other.
Those spirits knew what to do - they were also people that would have helped Harry - motivate Harry - drive Harry on - Wormtail just did something in conjuction with the PI spell to make sure that Harry was motivated, driven on by people he loved and cared for etc.
Could we also have seen Pettigrew repay his debt that night by putting in place all the steps Harry needed to get away from Voldemort?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Alz said:
Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...
Then remember who goes and gets Harry's wand before Harry battles Voldemort?
Also remember where the portkey is in conjuction to the wand ...
Each of those spirits that came out was telling Harry what to do - and also what he had to do when the wands broke apart.

Actually, I believe that Voldemort killed the old man, Frank, in his parents old house. He was the one who pointed the wand and said the spell, it wasn't wormtail. Even though he was a creepy little blob, he did have hands and could hold a wand.
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Alz, that's pretty cool, I never really thought about Peter actually helping Harry that night. Fortescue has a point there though-he didn't seem to play a part in killing Frank-and didn't Voldemort say he killed Bertha himself? I guess I'm hoping that Peter still has his life-debt to Harry yet to pay. I see your point though-he sure didn't behave like he owed Harry a life debt in the graveyard did he? That sends chills down my spine:eek: He really is a slimy little rat!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Actually if you read my post again - Frank is still legit - I said as follows ... 'Each thing that comes out of the wand is connected to Wormtail - those he betrayed, those he lead to death, those he killed and also his hand ...' - notice lead to death?
My point is that he had a helping hand in it all - all those people that died - be it directly or indirectly ... so my point stands ...
I think the 'hand' is the big clue as to who made the changes ... he offered a helping hand - lost a hand - blah blah ...
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
I would have to say you're right Alz-Peter did have a helping hand in all of those deaths!:D Truthfully, I didn't quite grasp what you were getting at here. I'm guessing the portkey debate had to do with who made it a return ticket? I figured Peter had to be the one who did it-although on Voldemort's orders. I always thought that killing Harry wasn't the end of his plan, his ultimate goal was Hogwarts and Aberforth. If that's not true, then your theory has some weight to it-I certainly think we are going to be caught off guard by the rat. Everyone underestimates him (probably because he's loathsome!) but he was able to become an animagus and he did fool everyone for a long time(he's still fooling most). Didn't Dumbledore say that priori incantantum regurgitates recent spells from the wand? I can't remember what he said about the victims being able to communicate-I'll have to read that again. What did that hand that came out do? I forget:eek: If Peter helped Harry that night, we'll have to consider possibilities! I mean Peter does seem to choose the one with the most power.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah this was kind of a direct address on the who changed the port key debate ...
I think after much debate over the years and then re-reading GoF prior to the film I was actually satisfied that indeed the rat did it ...
I just think in the symbolism of the act as well as the circumstance - the helping hand of Wormtail helped both the master and the enemy ... Wormtail I think still knows all he did and while I am not convinced he is ready for for confession and apology - I think he is capable of sabotage from a powerful position.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Alz said:
I was actually satisfied that indeed the rat did it
He see's the light!:D
Haven't I been saying that all along? It just couldn't have been anyone else, unless it is possible to place two destinations on one portkey at the same time. the Rat had the oportunity, and a motive. I think I also have a post somewhere on this site about Peter's place in Gryfindor, and that the courage the hat saw in him will come out in an effort to help Harry in the end. Most of what we have seen of dear old Wormtail, is a very timid and cowardly personality, always hiding in the shadow of those he thinks can take care of him. But the hat saw courage in there somwhere or it wouldn't have placed him in Gryfindor.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Umm - i think you missed my point ...
We debated all parts of this scenario in another thread and I also mentioned Peter - but it was always just discussion ...
I actually think I might have found something a little more solid - hence why I put it out here on it's own ...
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Well what did you find? You're leaving us hanging here:D I'm looking back through this scene and I'm not seeing it-Peter does give him his wand "without looking at him"-wouldn't he give some sign to Harry if he was actually helping him? SiriusPotterFan- It's funny that you brought up the hat:D I was thinking about that last night-Why would the Sorting Hat put Peter in Gryffindor? Since I was already thinking the Sorting Hat may be one of the horcuxes-now I have to wonder-can the Sorting Hat see the future?It seems Peter has to end up doing something truly heroic(Gryffindor) so you could really be onto something here Alz! I for one am going to go over this w/a magnifying glass.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Well - I suppose one could say Peter had a chance to do something with Harry's wand that may have caused the priori incantem ... I think that was one observation.
I think overall I was looking at the scene - him loosing a hand, Voldemort giving him a hand - all the shadows coming out of the wand all seem to have been killed by association or directly by Wormtail ... I was just trying to add some substance to the speculation - this was one of my personal fav discussions over the years!
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
how the hand fits in. . . what I see is conflict. Peter owes Harry, the hand is from/of Voldemort. Could wormtail try to help Harry, but the hand somehow will not allow him? Might Peter be forced to die by Voldemorts hand, or to again cut off his hand?
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Well I feel like a dunce:eek: I just realized that I wasn't taking something into account here-Legilimency! What if the reason Peter wouldn't look into Harry's eyes was because he didn't want Voldemort to know what he was doing via Harry? Put with the metaphor of the hand-this is compelling! If he was helping Harry here-does this mean he's behaving like a Gryffindor now? I wonder if this has anything to do with why he's at Snape's?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
.. as in Voldemort is not sure he could trust him?
Was that the implication there - perhaps Voldemort was working out how Harry got away and came to the same conclusion as me :p
I like the extra point about Legilimency - tis true to say that even Dumbledore avoided looking at Harry in the eye throughout OoTP for the very same reason - he didnt want Voldemort looking in ... same as Pettigrew would not want the boss to know he gave a helping hand to Harry ...
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Exactly:D That makes more sense to me than thinking Peter is really going to spy on Snape(Try to spy-said the spider to the fly:D ) One thing Voldemort's not is stupid. Makes you wonder why Voldemort wouldn't just kill Peter! Is there some reason for keeping him alive?
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
As I remember, Snape and Wormtail had a slight discussion about which of them could go to Voldemort and have Wormtail assigned a different task than 'making drinks' for Snape. If Voldemort suspected Wormtail helped Harry, I doubt Wormtail would feel like he could still go to his master and ask for a more challenging task. However, it could also have served as a reminder to Wormtail that Voldemort's patience with him is limited, and that he does suspect him.

I understand what you are getting at in the OP though. What we see come out of the wand is pointing us to Peter straight away. Wasn't it Peter who brought Frank into the room? Was it Peter who killed the spare?
When I think about it, his hand, then Cedric who died at his hand, Frank Bryce was killed when Peter's hands turned the chair...at any point, Peter could have defied his master and finished it. These all happened after Harry spared his life. Perhaps he saw his chance when Voldemort was reborn. He has been using Voldemort's wand up to this point, so I don't see why he'd have any trouble using Harry's. I have (I think) always believed that Peter was responsible for changing the port key (if it isn't just an oversight of JK), but I don't think he has paid that life debt yet. He tried, but he couldn't know for sure that Harry would still survive.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
kashlie said:
As I remember, Snape and Wormtail had a slight discussion about which of them could go to Voldemort and have Wormtail assigned a different task than 'making drinks' for Snape. If Voldemort suspected Wormtail helped Harry, I doubt Wormtail would feel like he could still go to his master and ask for a more challenging task. However, it could also have served as a reminder to Wormtail that Voldemort's patience with him is limited, and that he does suspect him.
I think was a class A example of Snape's sarcasm - he says to Wormtail perhaps he should go see the Dark Lord knowing that Pettigrew cannot - Snape might suspect that Wormtail is under suspicion - while of course Pettigrew thinks the same ... I see no reason why maybe even Voldemort didn't hint it to both as well - chance of them both sitting down and discussing that the Dark Lord said about the other is not really an option right?
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Not only is Snape an expert at sarcasm-he has an extremely funny sarcastic wit!:D It's very subtle but when reading him as something other than the evil being Harry thinks he is-well I've fallen off my chair laughing!
You know looking at Peter on Harry's side, looking at Snape in a different light, and some other intriguing ideas-I'm starting to get the feeling that Harry has more help than he realizes! What do you think?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Harry is given help from many sources - many of which he knows and can identify - but there is still those that sit on the edge - Snape is a classic example and now maybe Wormtail.
I dont want to drift too far from the plot on this - I just wanted to add a little more weight behind many people's thoughts that Wormtail was in fact the once that helped Harry that night :p
 
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