The Snape/Dumbledore theory?

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I heard something today that was rather interesting - it was from someone who was a casual reader of the books and takes things quite literally - but he thought that perhaps Snape and Dumbledore had changed places and indeed it was Snape in that cave with Harry and also Snape that died in Dumbledore's place on the tower.
Now - usually I would think yeah right - but when someone who isnt really looking into things comes to a conclusion like that - I wonder if it is worthy of thought?
I pushed him on this and he believes that is how the person was able to figure out the potion - know it could be drunk and also know that he could come out the other side ... maybe even creating an immunity to many poisions along his way as potions master.
When pushed on reason to die - the unbreakable vow he made would mean that he sealed Dumbledore's death - he acted in a manner that would most certainly mean Dumbledore had to die.
He knew if he let Dumbledore live - he would die - and if he let Dumbledore die he would have good as killed him - so he agree's to swap places.
Now I could spend hours arguing for and against this one - but figured what the heck - let you guys do it instead ...

.. all the same - you should always consider the views of the casual reader - for they dont look at things the same way us 'die hard' fans do - and as such might see something we dont!
 

The Frozen North

Bloody Cold in Norway
Alz said:
I heard something today that was rather interesting - it was from someone who was ..............quite literally .......drunk .........

Yes.... this theory is about the standard I generally come up with too :D :D :D

Sorry, I know it's not at all constructive but I just couln't resist:D :D :D

But seriously, interesting but I don't buy it. When Harry was chasing Snape out of the castle grounds it was definately Snape he was chasing, he new too many things that only Harry and Snape would know and reacted in a way that only Snape would react. In addition, if it was really DD escaping, polyjuiced to look like Snape, presumably he now will act as the ultimate spy for the Order. Not only does this raise many practical problems it makes the logical storyline so complicated and confused that that the final book could end up quite boring purely to get through to the conclusion of the storyline..... not JKR like at all. Finally, if it were to be done and DD was to become the ultimate spy and was confident that it could work, why not do it before, before Snape made the UV, before they went Horcrux hunting? Why not do it as soon as LV returned?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Okay, let's say that Harry wouldn't know the difference between Snape, (who can't even be in a room with Harry without insulting him in some fashion,) and Dumbledore. Let's say that Snape, disquised as Dumbledore went to the cave with Harry. I can't picture under any circumstances, Snape telling Harry that Harry was more important then anybody. I can't picture it.

Also, on the grounds when Snape left after the tower thing, he shot a curse at Harry, it was an unspoken encantation, but from what we saw in HBP about Sectumsempra, the movement Snape did - the slashing motion was the same thing Harry did to Malfoy. That was Snape's own personal curse. Would Dumbledore even know about that curse, much less use it on Harry?
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Well I defo agree that it's good to listen to casual readers who come up w/fresh ideas-I've gotta go w/TFN on this one. That was definately our good old Severus after the tower, and while Dumbledore's actions and words were strange in the cave(more like Slug) they needed to be far more acerbic-there's just to little dripping sarcasm:D Plus he's still got to big a part to play! It would be very sad indeed if it was the end of our love/hate relationship w/the almighty greasy one:cool:
Oops-agree w/you too Fortescue(we must be posting at same time:D )
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Excellent - that will be me against the board again - I like them odds :D

Reasons I like this ...
Potion in the cave - yeah Snape would have known better than pretty much all what he was looking at and maybe even knew a trick or 2 on consumption.
Still think he has been slowly poisoning himself over the years to make him immune to many potions.
It was noted Dumbledore jumped into the water before the cave like a much younger man as well.
When the cave Dumbledore gets back to Hogsmeade he calls for Severus ... now we think to heal but could be to let him know (him being Dumbledore)
Snape is well hidden/concealed during the battle etc and only emerges once someone let's him know what is going on ...
We suppose Dumbledore is aware of what is planned - would he have left the school unattended - another reason he remained behind in Snape's place
I think Dumbledore had been there before and maybe even got as far as the potion and didn't want to proceed - instead sending Snape.
If Snape/Dumbledore had failed at any point in the cave - the real Dumbledore would have been alive and safe - he would just need to order Harry to leave and Harry should have obliged ...
The regret shown in the sequences whilst consumed in the potion might have been consistent with the regret he feels over Lily's death.

So tower/post events - I knew you would all protest at this so I kept my thoughts back .... :D
There was a chance that at any point the DE's/Draco could have killed Dumbledore dead on sight - by having Snape in the guise it meant if that was the case then once again Dumbledore would have been safe and also would have looked like Dumbledore had died ...
We all speculate that there was no death there that night - so sure fits in here as well - Snape and Dumbledore work between themselves to create the scene and even work out how to make it look like Dumbledore was AK'ed - evens play out - Harry runs after Snape and Draco - but how many times did Harry loose sight of Snape/Draco?
I think there is ample chance for a switch back and indeed job done Snape slots back in and returns to the Dark Lord.
Draco and DE's all leave the scene thinking Dumbledore was killed - and we swap back to other spec's on the case of Dumbledore and a faked death ...
I still think Snape was close enough to the DE's/Voldemort or even Narcissa to know when this was going down, the time and place etc and this made staging the events so much easier.

SOOOOO.... I don't believe you are all so right to dismiss this - think about the two people that knew what was coming, had plenty of time to plan for it and were also suited to execute the plan to full effect ...
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
So, if this is the case, and Dumbledore was actually Snape and Snape was Dumbledore on the top of the tower, then that would mean it was Dumbledore who killed Snape and not the other way around. I can see the possibility of someone standing in for Dumbledore, (just barely though), but I can't see Dumbledore killing Snape and then going back to Voldemort and pretending to be Snape.

I guess I would need to know when they might have possibly made the switch, and how they did it. Someone mentioned Polyjuice Potion, and if that was the case, if they switched after Dumbledore touched the ring, would Dumbledore in Snape's form then have a perfectly good hand as long as he continued to drink the potion? I still have a hard time with Dumbledore killing someone else.

I do see your point Alz that Dumbledore's words in the cave under the influence of the potion could possibly fit Snape as well. He probably had a lot of things on his conscious that would come out in that type of situation, but I don't know if Snape has a good enough heart to have those types of regrets that would come out under the influence of the potion.
 
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SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
I have to say-you've argued a very good case Alz:D So you're saying they switched back before the whole "Don't call me a coward thing"-hmmm very interesting. When I think of some of the comments in the cave like- "I think it unlikely that your powers will register compared to mine" and "Your blood is worth more than mine"(sarcastically), well I guess I can imagine Snape saying such a thing:D Of course I think he did call him Voldemort instead of the Dark Lord? and I believe he apologized to Harry:confused:
The details of the potion makes sense since I also believe Snape's been nipping here and there too (specifically the DOLD), whoever it was they got up w/fire awfully darn fast! Are you now thinking Slug wasn't involved w/ the whole scheme or were all three of them in on it? I'm going to go back and read through again w/ this perspective:D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Fortescue said:
So, if this is the case, and Dumbledore was actually Snape and Snape was Dumbledore on the top of the tower, then that would mean it was Dumbledore who killed Snape and not the other way around. I can see the possibility of someone standing in for Dumbledore, (just barely though), but I can't see Dumbledore killing Snape and then going back to Voldemort and pretending to be Snape.
I am speculating that as with the Slughorn spec - this is all a staged plan and infact it was Snape stood in for Dumbledore - and it is Snape that goes over the tower - but they swap back as Draco runs for his life and Harry follows - we know Harry looses sight of Draco and Snape and I think Draco would have been more concerned at getting to the gate than looking back at Snape - I think that is where the swap came again ...
The same as Snape had all the attributes to escape the potion in the cave - Dumbledore had all the power to cast a very believable AK at himself (Snape) and give the ultimate illusion that he had died ...
So, to cover it again - I think they planned for Snape to stand in just in case Dumbledore was killed prematurely - but swapped back once the plan executed the way it should ...
 

hfinallyquiet

Time Turners
Hi, I'm new here so I'm just going to jump in.

That theory is fascinating but I can't help think of Dumberdore being in the picture asleep....just like all the other dead headmasters. What really bothered me is that they didn't wake him (his ghost) up and say,"What the hell just happened?"

And if the switch-a-roo took place, it seems to me as though the Fawkes wouldn't have lamented the way he did. I guess he could have been in on it too but it seems unlikely.

I personally think that Snape is on the good side and Dumbledore sacrificed himself. When he said, "Please", he said it because he knew it was hard for Snape to do it. And remember that Dumbledore always stated that death was not the worst thing. To him, sacrificing himself for the overall good of the mission would have been a honor. Snape would be trusted without fail back at the DEs. I also wondered if maybe sacrificing himself didn't add even more of the "old magic" of love protection to Harry. Dumbledore loved Harry like his own child.

I think, too, that Dumbledore would have hated for Draco to become a murderer. He may have told Snape to make the unbreakable vow so that Draco, as a still innocent child in Dumbledore's eyes, wouldn't do the most horrible thing known to man.

And if you remember in HBP, Hagrid was telling Harry about an argument he overheard between Snape and Dumbledore. Dumbledore basically told snape that he (Snape) had to do it because it was his job. (Something like that) I think he was telling him, you will have to kill me in order for this war to continue.

It's weird that I side with Snape because the first time I read HBP, I was as angry at him as Harry was...lol. But things fell into place for me the second time around.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See one thing I noticed is that Fawkes seems tuned into Dumbledore's feelings - on occasion JKR writes Fawkes made such and such a sound - usually at a time Dumbledore is going through some kind of emotion.
Think about this - if it was Dumbledore that was forced to kill Snape - then I should imagine he was just as upset as what we apparently see Snape after he killed Dumbledore - as such I think Fawkes was amplifying that emotion ...
The parts I really liked was the fact that Snape being the potions master could have taken on that potion and come out the other side - as well as the fact Snape effectively sealed Dumbledore's death by agreeing to the Unbreakable charm - I don't think he could allow Dumbledore to die because he was forced into a corner with Narcissa and Bellatrix - and he really was forced into a corner.
Lastly - We have all recently been speculating that Dumbledore had to be killed in order for Voldemort to come out of hiding (only one he ever feared) this also fuels the thought that Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort come out of hiding and face Harry - only to realise the only one he ever feared is still about :p
Plus - it is all good wild spec :D
 
What if............ DD placed a new protection on Harry by standing between him and Draco just as his mother had stood between him and Voldemort. I have no doubt that Draco would have AK'd Harry on sight, where he would have hesitated with an AK for DD.. By protecting Harry, the protection from Voldemort could have been renewed, this time by a much more powerful wizard than Lily.

Also, and this is slightly OT... I think DD's comment about Harry's blood being more valuable has a link to the "victorious smile" DD had when he learned that Voldemort used Harry's blood.

Now, back OT... I don't believe for one second that Snape stood in for DD and took that AK, nor do I believe there was a switch during the flight from the tower. I believe DD was indeed put to death on that tower. However, I still stand firmly on the belief that DD had a "light magic" Horcrux equivalent in place to counter his death. DD will be back, and Snape will be in the perfect place to bring Voldemort down. I say DD will be back based on the literary similarities of HP to Lord of the Rings. Gandalf was killed, but sent back because his work wasn't finished. I feel JKR will use this concept to bring Harry's champion back to see him to the end of his journey. And maybe she'll throw Kreacher into a volcano for good measure =)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Dumbledore bowed to Snape on at least one occasion we know of in HBP - McGonagall also told Filch to take the poisoned necklace to Snape - Dumbledore called from Snape after he returned from the cave - and why is that?
Because Snape is more capable than all of them when it comes to Dark Magic - and there can be NO arguments from you all on this ... so when it comes to the cave, who was better served to negotiate the protections which culminated in consuming a potion that was not identifiable?
I think Snape was best served to take on those defences, after all he did spend time with the DE's and Voldemort and might have had more insight into possible magic than anyone in the order, and was able to withstand that potion better than the frail and already injured Dumbledore ...
Heck we even talked of the potions knife that 'Dumbledore' cut himself with ... jumping and swimming with the ease of a younger man ...
I'm not ready to throw the towel in with this - I feel there is a fair deal of weight that can be applied to this spec ;)
 
Woudn't it be absolutely delicious if it wasn't Snape that killed DD? But instead, it was DD that killed Snape? I despise Snape on his own, even if he DOES turn out to be a good guy. I'd have no remourse even if it was him that was killed (if anyone actually was, which I don't believe..)

We will know early in book 7 though, cuz Hagrid will have to be in on it since he carried DD's body.. Everyone knows Hagrid's catch phrase afterall....... "I should'na have said that.........." He'll blab it within 5 chapters =)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See, now I am not opposed to pulling apart my own spec here - and I still feel that the person that turned on Harry as they were escaping from Hogwarts was Snape - it just seemed so personal the way he talked to Harry.
That is my biggest argument in this theory - I mean there is so much I liked about it but I'm not sure I can see Dumbledore being able to attack Harry like Snape did - I cant think Dumbledore could summons up all that pent up hatred and anger that was evident when Snape talked to Harry before apparating ...
That doesn't mean I dismiss the whole spec - I still think that the cave if anything was just ripe for Snape - Dumbledore admitted to Harry that when we was leaving Hogwarts he was tracking places Voldemort had been to etc and that he found encouraging signs that he located another horcrux - the cave ...
This means he could have pre-surveyed it and asked Snape to stand in ... bear in mind Harry left Dumbledore before they departed to the cave - any switching could have taken place!
 

Brycen05

Time Turners
Now that I think back, Dumbledore did have a slight personality change through the whole cave thing (neglecting the obvious post-potion change, of course). But honestly, I think that Dumbledore died reinforcing the love spell that Lily originally made. But I think that he could have made a way to remain alive within Fawkes, and that's why the phoenix flew away. Okay, I think that Dumbledore sacrificed himself, knowing the love thing would activate or whatever. Then, when his soul entered Fawkes, he followed Snape. The only thing that bothers me is the way Dumbledore acted when he was killed, that just seemed to be the opposite of everything I've learned about Dumbledore. I know I shouldn't contradict myself in one post, but that was so strange and I just had exams, so I'm having some difficulty wrapping my mind around this one.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
LOL - contradictions are allowed - I do it all the time :eek:

OK - the reason I don't think Dumbledore laid his life down to give Harry more protection stems from the start of HBP - Dumbledore knows that once Harry turns 17 - of age - he will loose the protections Dumbledore had sealed with Lily's sacrifice ...
I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore would know that once Harry turned 17, he was on his own - all protections that bound him as a child were gone and it was now down to Harry to protect himself - Dumbledore showed Harry the door and Harry walked through it - he knows after his little thoughts to himself, that he is now on his own after all the people he loved had laid down their life's to protect him but now, he was on his own!

My biggest credits to this spec go to the change in attitude and ability - and of course that potions knife he carried ... and not negating the fact he could get through that potion and still able to conjure a protection fire ring that saved Harry!
 

Seeker615

Ghosthunter
I have read this theory elsewhere and though I find it very interesting I just can't see Snape switching places for a few reasons.

1)- Snape is a Slytherin. Phinneas in the painting said it best when he said "given the choice a Slytherin will choose to save his own neck. I agree that Snape would not choose to lay down his life in place of Dumbledore.

2)- I can't see Snape being able to put on such a good act in Front of Harry in the cave. He despises Harry yet we see Dumbledore treating Harry respectfully and patiently in the cave. No way would Snape have had the patience to be with Harry that long and not at soem point snark or snap at him.

3)- I truly believe that DD knew his number was up after the ring horcrux. I think he was biding his time and trying to get Harry to learn as much as possible before he finally did expire.

4)- Polyjuice potion would not last that long. We never saw or heard of DD drinking anything during that ordeal. It had to be longer than an hour.

I guess we will get our answers when that last book comes out.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
You know what - it doesn't sit perfectly with me either but I do feel there is some merit to it all ...
With regards to your comments back, I will take a stab at response not because I think you are wrong - but more just to keep the wild spec running - excuse moi :eek:

1 - You are indeed right - that is the general trait of a Slytherin.
But, you have to remember it is just possible that Snape's precipitation on Dumbledore's unwavering trust in him might make him do what might be one selfless act in his existence - just showing that if someone took a chance on him, he might have been a different person ... hard to imagine I know - but the faith Dumbledore showed him must have been really humbling considering all the things he was into!

2 - We have uncovered many an occasion that Snape has helped Harry - hidden in the shadows ... I'm not sure he did it for Harry but maybe more for Dumbledore.
But just in case there was a tie between him and Lily - that might also help him get over this hatred enough not to see Harry fail, after all it is helping himself if Harry destroys Voldemort.

3 - I wont argue with that point - I think once Snape told him the events at Spinners End, Dumbledore knew it was the right thing to face his own end - but I cant help but feel Snape would have wanted to help given it was him that all but forced Dumbledore into this corner ...

4 - Timing is very, very hard to pin down here - Harry did leave Dumbledore before they left for the cave - but then again I am not totally convinced it would be polyjuice that allowed the switch - remember Snape knows some pretty dark magic ... still hard to fault that one!
 

Sevstrueluve

Time Turners
Joanna stated for a fact Albus Dumbledore is dead.
Why else would there be a portrait of the Headmaster in the Headmaster's office ?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Joanna stated for a fact Albus Dumbledore is dead.
Why else would there be a portrait of the Headmaster in the Headmaster's office ?

... and you know what - even though JKR has come out and said that, I can point you towards many sites and posts here even where people think it isnt all what it seemes ... as in questioning if he really is dead ...
If you ask me, I agree he is dead ... but unless you are JKR - I would ask you respect people's rights to speculate wildly if they wish - why I created this place ... if you dont like spec ... your in the wrong place ....
 
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