Victims of the Avada Kedavra Curse......

Athena

Time Turners
I was wondering what happens to the victims of the Avada Kedavra curse.... this might take some explaining on my part.... and a little patience on yours ;)

What if the spirit/magic/powers of a witch/wizard that was killed by the Avada Kedavra curse is trapped in the wand of the witch/wizard that cast the spell? Would the attacker then become a more powerful wizard

I was thinking about this when I was listening to GOF on the way to work.... there's more.... so fasten your seat belts :)

When Harry and Voldemort cast spells against each other, Harry used the Expelliarmis Spell... Voldemort used the Avada Kedavra curse. Now Dumbledore said that 2 brother wands wouldn't work properly against each other. And Harry's didn't, but what if instead of expelling the wand from Voldemort's hand (the intention of the spell) the Expelliarmis Spell broke the curse and released the spirits/magic/powers of the victim's from the wand. It would make sense that the spell cast on baby Harry wouldn't show up because there wasn't anything trapped in the wand from that spell.

If Harry was killed and his powers trapped in the wand, Then Voldemort would have a great advantage over Dumbledore and the Order.



Any thoughts?
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
YOu know... there really could be something here. I had never really thought about the fact that although Voldemort had cast the spell to kill Harry, that some shadowy form of Harry did not come out of Voldemort's "priori incantatem". Priori incantatem shows the last spell the wand cast, (like it showed the dark mark from Harry's wand) So that would lead to a spell having to be successful in order to be "saved" in the wand, not just that the spell was cast. So now...just what is it that is saved in a wand?...There is aparently some "essence" of the person from the AK curse, becaus Harry could converse with them, and they with him and each other, and knowing full who they were, and what their situation was (Cedric asking Harry to take his body to his parents)

Could this be part of what was ment in the prophecy? That neither could live till the other died? that what ever it is that Harry and Voldemort share, would be returned to the victor when they stored that "essence" in their wand. And could that be further reason for the brother wands? WOW *head spinning here* :eek: too much to think about...give someone else a shot! Good catch Athena! (I really need to invest in the audio books :p )
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Oh my! You know, that would explain why there is (usually) no marks left. All the 'power' and life essentially sucked from the victims. This could also give creedence to the 'shadows' changing the portkey *gulp* when I have just said they couldn't!

So Harry's Expelliarmus 'expelled' the power from the wand, rather than the wand from the hand, because he used it against the brother wand. I really think I understand this theory, and I really like it!
 

George

Tom Marvolo Riddle
Very nice theory! Nicely thought. Thing is, I think the intensity of the curse (like the Cruciatus) depends on how much you want to kill... the more determination, the more the curse is likely to kill. But, I wonder how the sould comes out after the curse hits? The mouth, like in the legends, or in some other way... like, say, through the heart?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
From the evidence we've been given - the death of the Riddle's - it seems that what Avada Kedavra does is simply stops the heart, there are no marks and nothing else that shows up in an autopsy. I don't think that would somehow take the victims soul and vent it into the attackers wand. The victim dies and their soul/spirit go on the next great adventure. The only reason Voldemort didn't die was that he'd done his little experiments; possibly with the help of Snape's ability to "stopper death."

The attack on the Potter's happened shortly after Snape allied with Dumbledore. If Snape can indeed make a potion that will stop death, and he did give the potion to Voldemort, I'm sure Snape told Dumbledore this and it could answer many questions about Dumbledore's odd look when he found out Voldemort had used Harry's blood for resurrection.

All this put aside, I still don't understand what happened to Voldemort's body when he attacked Harry, since all previous examples of AK leave no mark on the victim, and in this case, Harry got a scar and Voldemort lost his body.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
I was under the impression that the AK curse, apart from stopping the heart, actually sucked out the souls of the people it killed - not just just their souls, but their whole 'being'. I believe Voldemort or whoever invented the curse, took their idea from the dementors. It explains why the echoes could emerge from the wands in such a way, and in Voldemorts case, I believe when the spell rebounded it had an opposite effect and rather than suck out his 'being', it took his body. Because the curse was not designed for that, when Priori Incantutem occured, a full body could not have emerged (and wildly, Voldemort could have already removed his body in some way in order to gain it back??)
Simply, I think the AK is the Wizard's way of performing the Kiss, and going one step further to kill.

It is weird, but I have a funny feeling that the Riddle's were the first victims of the AK, if not ever, then in a very long time.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
If that were the case, then Wormtail's new hand wouldn't have come out of Voldemort's wand because it didn't have a soul - it was something he created. The wand simply regurgitated spells in order that had been done previously, just like Mr. Diggory made Harry's wand make the tiny Dark Mark when they found Winky with his wand. The shadows weren't the souls of the people killed with Voldemort's wand or they would have then been ghosts, and they obviously weren't. I think Nick explained that when you die your soul/spirit moves on unless you are afraid of death. I think the Potter's were not afraid of death, maybe the death of their son, but not their own or else they wouldn't have sacrificed themselves to protect him.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I am in agreement with Fort, the shadows were not the "souls" of the victims, just a reflection if you will. the same way the paintings in the wizarding world are not the people they were painted of, but a reflection of who they were, the contain the essense of personality and knowledge, but are not the soul of the real person. Another thing Harry was asking about Sirius, and told that it would not really be him.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Yah in agreement here - what we saw was the replay of a series of spells cast from that wand.
I like the idea of the extraction of the soul - would explain how Voldemort ended up in hiatus - afterall the spell didnt go to well as we saw with Harry living and Voldemort reduced to this spirit - but as Forte pointed out we saw the arm of Pettigrew.
That gives the clearest evidence that the shadows produced are just that - they are a snapshot replay of an executed spell from the persons wand - no more powerful than the spell that causes them to be there in the first place - I offer this exibhit A in the wand shadows versus port key case ;)
 

Boing

Pops in randomly
Also have to offer an "agree" here. Also, there were other spells that were cast in between the major ones from Voldemort's wand; however, those were simply described as "screams of pain," so I'm thinking perhaps they were from the Cruciatus curse. Interesting to see which spells have something that comes out of them and which don't . . . I'm sure there were times the wand was used to light a fire or something, but that didn't come out . . .

As for the Avada Kedavra curse, I think everyone we've seen so far has ended up with their mouths wide open (of course, we've only seen the Riddles), but that could be something - could mean that part of them was taken through the mouth.

Although something else is interesting here - when the curse rebounded off Harry, it left some of Voldemort inside of Harry - some of his powers. So what if the Avada Kedavra actually takes a little bit out of the person who performs it each time it is performed. Kind of like slowly sucking out the caster's life as he/she takes others' lives? So, instead of having a dead person with a little of Voldemort in them (Lily and James), Harry was left alive, but still had that little piece of Voldemort. Completely wacky, I know, but just something that popped into my head!
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Boing said:
Although something else is interesting here - when the curse rebounded off Harry, it left some of Voldemort inside of Harry - some of his powers. So what if the Avada Kedavra actually takes a little bit out of the person who performs it each time it is performed. Kind of like slowly sucking out the caster's life as he/she takes others' lives? So, instead of having a dead person with a little of Voldemort in them (Lily and James), Harry was left alive, but still had that little piece of Voldemort. Completely wacky, I know, but just something that popped into my head!

My first thought here. . . isn't it just amazing how much we dig into, and theorize about something fictional :eek: LOL! :D

OK, now my second thought! :D I doubt that the curse takes something out of the caster. For starters, there would now be nothing left of Voldemort or his powers with as many times as he has used it! That said, perhaps there could be a bit of a "copy/paste" kind of effect, only, all but one who have had the spell cast on them have died haven't they, so there is no way to really tell. It does make sense though now that I think of it, the AK being such a powerful spell, and the caster having to have the strong mental desire to see that person dead, that they would have to offer some of themselves in the spell, but perhaps when it is normaly performed, what they have given up comes back? I don't know. . . a possibility I suppose, but I think it more an effect of the rebound. When the spell on Harry rebounded, and Voldemort was left as his mere essence, the essence may have even been spread apart, as if blown up, and some "stuck" to Harry, but. . . then again, once back in his body, Voldemort did not seem to be "missing" any of himself, or his "essence", so the "copy" part seems more plausable again. But, we know that there was more than that going on, because Harry has the scar, all other AK victims show no scaring at all.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I think the main point to be made is that the victims bodies had no marks - none that could be found in autopsy. But the amazing thing is the fact of what happened to Voldemort with the supposed rebound off Harry and the example of what a deflected curse could do, that is, the one Voldemort shot in the Ministry of Magic that bounced off the statue and hit the security guards desk causing it to burst into flames. In Voldemort's case, he lost his body!! I think that is a significant clue as to what happened that night being more then a rebounded AK.

Off topic just a bit :D
I think this is where the significance of the color of Harry's eyes comes into play, and I will bet that we learn in HBP what that significance is - I don't believe the AK rebounded in the way we are led to believe and that some of that curse was absorbed by Harry and shot back at Voldemort through Harry's green eyes. Just a prediction on my part :eek: (can't wait to find out myself) :D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
What is interesting is that the killing curse cannot be deflected or blocked ... or so we are told.
Yet we have seen now 2 instances where the curse didnt meet the target and instead lead to damage on another item.
But this is a little bit of a digression me thinks ;)

Athena said:
What if the spirit/magic/powers of a witch/wizard that was killed by the Avada Kedavra curse is trapped in the wand of the witch/wizard that cast the spell? Would the attacker then become a more powerful wizard

Back on track and all ...
If this was the case then Voldemort should have had the upper hand when he met Harry in GoF - because his wand contained the souls of Lily & James as well as a few more ...
In effect - if I am understanding the question right - then Voldemort should have had some good charms skills inherited by his wand ...
 
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