What were Snape and Dumbledore arguing about?

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore arguing about something.
what was purpose behind that?
Hagrid says that DD asked Snape to make investigation in his house. And then Snape complained of being overworked and also about DD taking things for granted.
Maybe Snape was tired of working as double agent and decided to take one side.
From his actions it seems that he chose to side with Dark lord.
But from the actions of DD it seems that it was all plotted.
what do you guys think?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sure this is under discussion elsewhere but I cant find it - if I come across it I will merge it in ...

I think the argument was about what Dumbledore was asking Snape to do.
I think Snape told Dumbledore straight away after he did the Unbreakable vow with Narcissa - basically condeming himself or Dumbledore.
I think they strategically worked out what needed to happen and as Draco became wilder in his efforts to kill Dumbledore - Dumbledore was reminding Snape of the end game ..
Snape really did like and respect Dumbledore - prolly one of the only people ever to show Snape trust and have faith in him - and his part was to be the eventual killer ...
I think Snape saw the end coming and started to freak - he prolly felt sure Dumbledore would find a way around it all but Dumbledore knew when it was time to take a bow ...
I think Snape knew at this point it wasnt all going to end happy ever after and thus we get a repetition of the conversation from Hagrid - of a conversation that was suppose to be well away from any ears!
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
I did try to find something on this if already discussed. If you do, please merge me in, and my apologies.
Thanks for your input too. I am glad there are so many people here who think different. I also like your idea about Snape acting best according to the situations.
What amazes me is after sacrificing so much for so many years, acting as a spy, why would he just make a decision like that?
Or maybe DD was wrong about his character. Maybe Snape has different ideas too. Heck, one of our ideas are going to be reality, or maybe JKR has something under her sleeves that we cant make out.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think Snape knew the Dark Lords trust in him was starting to flag - making him look after Wormtail seems to indicate that Voldemort isn't as naive as we all think given Snape's roll as a double, double agent - seems the only one that could see through it was Bellatrix but her standing with the Dark Lord was somewhat diminished when she was part of the debacle that was foiled at the MoM in OoTP and they lost the Dark Lord his prophecy.
You have to look at the situation they were in at that time - Snape has made an unbreakable vow with Narcissa says he will not only look after Malfoy and keep him safe but even went as far as to say he would step in and do the job if Draco was unable ... he all but sealed his or Dumbledore's life.
He would have told Dumbledore about this straight after he did it - that is why Dumbledore was busy all year - he knew that in order for him to live, Draco and Snape would die - I think he played the odd's, he was old and starting to become less imposing - he has a spy in the camp that was probably his most powerful asset in this war - and if he was selfish enough to live, he would loose 2 people.
Now, trying to get Snape to accept and understand all of this was never going to be easy - Snape seemed to be very much someone who does nothing only for himself APART from Dumbledore. He follows Dumbledore's orders and respects him a great deal - so when you have sealed his death warrant and then suddenly been declared as the secondary, spare executioner if the time came ... I think you can understand his reticence ...
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
I think it is very important to remember here that DD trusted Snape, unquestionably, for reasons not yet known, and this most likely played a huge part in the outcome of HBP.
Snape knows that DD trusts him, but perhaps still did not feel that DD should give his life so that he (Snape) may live. I don't think it ever (okay, it might have a little) crossed Snape's mind to let Malfoy die when he didn't succeed.
I do still wonder about why Snape, the avid follower of the Dark Lord, let Narcissa talk him in to helping her. I mean, it was a nice gesture in an odd way, but he must have felt it would help he and DD or Voldemort (depending on his allegiance) somehow.
The arguement may have come at a time when Snape no longer felt his decision was the right one, and I agree that he started to freak when Dumbledore sealed his own fate.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See that is the slight complication in this - Snape's motivation.
Perhaps he felt it was his time to go - so he made the unbreakable vow knowing that he would never be able to fulfil it - and would pay with his life.
Otherwise, he made the vow knowing he would seal Dumbledore's fate - and that just seems to make you question his motivations and who's side he is on.
Thirdly - and most likely - he prolly felt if anyone could bring about a situation that kept Draco, him and Dumbledore alive - it would be Dumbledore.
Perhaps this is the moment Dumbledore tells him that the ultimate end to this would be with his own life and Snape then wants out - knowing he bought about this fate?
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Alz said:
See that is the slight complication in this - Snape's motivation.
Perhaps he felt it was his time to go - so he made the unbreakable vow knowing that he would never be able to fulfil it - and would pay with his life.
Otherwise, he made the vow knowing he would seal Dumbledore's fate - and that just seems to make you question his motivations and who's side he is on.
Thirdly - and most likely - he prolly felt if anyone could bring about a situation that kept Draco, him and Dumbledore alive - it would be Dumbledore.
Perhaps this is the moment Dumbledore tells him that the ultimate end to this would be with his own life and Snape then wants out - knowing he bought about this fate?

Merlin's beard. I think you are right.
If that is true, then Harry should kill Snape regardless on which side he is.
The git not only got Lily and James killed by mouthing the prophecy to dark lord, now he got Dumbledore killed by taking that vow.
I just hope that JKR has something really different in her mind.
 

littlehobit24

Time Turners
I think Snap was scared. He did not like the idea of the posibility of losing his life if he had to brake the vow. I don't think it was a matter of loalty. Snap does seam to be jerk in all acounts, but I think deep down it isn't hatetred that angers snap it is jellousy. I think he loved Lilly and because James got her instead he takes it out on Harry. If he realy wanted to go to the other side he had his chance. He could have captured or killed Harry several times by Voldemort. That is why I think the argument was out of fear not disloyalty.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
littlehobit24 said:
I think Snap was scared. He did not like the idea of the posibility of losing his life if he had to brake the vow. I don't think it was a matter of loalty. Snap does seam to be jerk in all acounts, but I think deep down it isn't hatetred that angers snap it is jellousy. I think he loved Lilly and because James got her instead he takes it out on Harry. If he realy wanted to go to the other side he had his chance. He could have captured or killed Harry several times by Voldemort. That is why I think the argument was out of fear not disloyalty.

hmmm..
I think thats a good point too.
The whole confusion here is there are just so many clues floating around that point in any directions.
I just read the book again and everytime I come out with a different feeling.
that arguement between Snape and DD had to be about Snape not being able to control Draco. DD was frustrated by that.
I think only way DD could have saved that vow without sacrificing anything, is by knowing what Draco was upto.
But then why no one takes Harry seriously when he is screaming all year long that Draco is upto something in ROR. Not even Dumbledore.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
..and that is the major clue as to why Dumbledore was fully aware what was coming - and he met it when it did!
Dumbledore didn't want to acknowledge to Harry he was aware - because it would have sent Harry on all types of quests and the real reasons would have come out ... he wanted to make it look like Harry was being paranoid and control the situation between himself and Snape - the mere reason it all started!
Snape was almost a victim of circumstance - he was landed in a spot where his true loyalties were in question - he decided to follow the big plan and play along as the faithful spy for Voldemort but in doing so, he landed Dumbledore right in the crap!
I'm not sure if it matters if he did it by intention or circumstance, the ends were all the same - and to Harry Snape's motivations don't matter - he just wants Snape's head ... Snape's motivations will remain closed and hidden till that moment - and then it will be if he is alive to tell Harry - or dying as he confesses the whole story ...
 

littlehobit24

Time Turners
I agree with Alz. I as wonder if part of it was that dumbledore was angry about the vow. I think that he was fustrated. He now had to worry about getting Harry ready to face Voldemort without letting on that he (Dumbledore) was facing death in the near future. He also had to face the fact that as hard as he tried to protect his sudents, Voldemort still had managed to use them once again.
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
littlehobit24 said:
I agree with Alz. I as wonder if part of it was that dumbledore was angry about the vow. I think that he was fustrated. He now had to worry about getting Harry ready to face Voldemort without letting on that he (Dumbledore) was facing death in the near future. He also had to face the fact that as hard as he tried to protect his sudents, Voldemort still had managed to use them once again.

Two possibilities here:
1) Snape and DD played this card together. DD knew he was dying anyways. DD also wanted to make Snape's position solid with Voldemort. DD also wanted Draco not to be a murderer. DD showed Harry what he needs to do in order to succeed, before dying. Snape will play huge support for Harry in book 7.
OR
2) Snape fooled DD all these years. He was a true deatheater all along. Voldemort's return and back to power caused Snape to return to dark arts. He actually killed DD deliberately. He saved himself by fulfilling unbreakable vow. He will cause more trouble in book 7.

I am almost positive here that possibility 1 is the only option.
why?
Snape for all these years loathed Harry, but always saved him from troubles.
Snape had so many chances to do a lot of harm during year 5 when DD was gone. He didnt. He also didnt provide veritaserum to Umbridge who wanted to interogate Harry and his friends.
Snape has helped DD at many crucial moments when DD needed his potion knowledge.
Snape practically embarrased Harry when he and Draco were escaping. Harry couldnt even finish a jinx against Snape. Snape could have taken Harry along with him to present him to Voldemort if he wanted. But he didnt do that.

Now lets talk about our topic here. What did Hagrid hear?
Maybe Hagrid heard exactly what Dumbledore wanted him to Hear. DD knew Hagrid wont be able to keep it secret and will tell Harry about that conversation between him and Snape.
Snape showed that hatred on his face while casting the killing curse. He downright hated that he had to kill DD, and he hated the fact that he had to do all the horrible things to pose as a true death eater.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I think you have it about right there cagedcactus - lots of pointers towards helping Harry in the background - plenty of motivation for redemption based on his actions in the past - last piece is the motivation of why someone who seems so out for themselves put their life in risk to aid Dumbledore and Harry - especially since that loathing for Harry is genuine - seems something is worth more than his own hatred of the father of Harry!
That conversation might never be fully revealed - I think if there was more Hagrid heard then Harry would have got it out of him - I mean once Hagrid makes the slip up getting the rest of the data isn't usually that hard!
I think he didn't get it all - just the closing parts and that is what he told Harry.
 

tobias

Time Turners
..and that is the major clue as to why Dumbledore was fully aware what was coming - and he met it when it did!

Yes! Would Dumbledore really not expect an attempt on his life?He must have known that it was coming sometime. So he would then influence it, use it...

What if he precipitated the attempt? What if he suggested to Snape that Snape be the one to kill him? We all know how it helped Snape get into the inner circle with Voldemort and since Dumbledore trusts Snape, he would want Snape to be where he could help Harry the most (maybe Snape can shield Harry’s thoughts for him, or maybe Snape kills Voldemort...)

And maybe that is why the AK was so weird- since Dumbledore knew/approved, the curse had a new look.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
OoHh I like that - usually AK is sudden, unexpected and brutal - if someone faces it with prior acknowledgement and ownership - you might expect a somewhat different result - because this also links back to Lily - who also did the same and we know what that lead to - or at least directed towards ...
I think Dumbledore knew he needed someone near Harry when the final moments come - someone who was still close enough to get good information and what is more - someone who will now have a new found faith and trust by his master - ridding Voldemort of Dumbledore will ensure that Snape was the most trusted ... and place him nicely along side Voldemort as that battle approaches - that is not a position Dumbledore could ever have managed himself!
 

cagedcactus

Sherbet Lemon
Agreed. The whole picture becomes clearer day by day. I think we might figure out the whole book, by the time it releases. :eek:
:D nah, thats not gonna happen. I dont know about others, but I am not good enough to figure out JKR's secrets.
I sometimes think about this whole Snape killing DD deal, and then one thing comes to my mind. Regardless of Snape's loyalties, Bellatrix is going to be one mad BITC.....errrrr..... WITCH now. She might even be cursing herself that Snape is going to look so good to Voldemort, because Bella tricked him in the VOW.
 

Rubeus

Time Turners
can anyone tell me the page reference to the arguement please? i am trying to look up for myself what hagrid said was said.
 

secret seeker

The Half Blood Prince
It can't have been that Snape wanted to quit teaching, coz then he would be no use to Voldemort as a spy ( a handy death eater still ), but that was my first impression.
I think Snape was scared of Voldemorts fury if he ever decided that he couldn't be trusted, and Snape wanted to be just a teacher and an Order member, he was sick of peoples prejudice against his character and wanted to be more involved ( in battles ), then people might treat him nicer.
Sounds pretty lame, then ask yourself if you have a fair interpretation of Snape's character at all?.
Everything is seen from Harry's perspective, and Harry's interpretation of Snape. We could be wrong about Snape, just like Lupin said; " I neither like, nor dis-like Severus snape ".
One could argue, but that was before he murdered Dumbledore, but I maintain we might not know why that happened.
 

M.A.H.

Time Turners
Snape showed that hatred on his face while casting the killing curse. He downright hated that he had to kill DD, and he hated the fact that he had to do all the horrible things to pose as a true death eater.

Perhaps that's why he freaks out when Harry calls him a coward. Snape had just maybe killed his only friend. Let's face it: all the death eaters do not trust him and the whole Order only trusts him because DD told them to. Dumbledore is the only one who wants to be kind to Snape(given that snape is a good guy).
The arguing could very well be Snape saying he doesn't want to kill DD and demanding DD will figure someting out to turn everything allright.
 
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