Who Changed the Portkey?

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
kashlie said:
For example, at the Quidditch Cup, safely storing active portkeys would be impossible, as would even knowing when they would be needed for the return trip. The portkey that took them to the hospital, again, was only one way because the return trip wasn't needed.
See I dont agree - sorry hun ;)
You need to look at it again - they knew when the World Cup would end - and yes they could have stored the portkey's fine - in fact it would have made more sense than trying to 'charm' more objects for the return journey's.
Same with the hospital trip - i think there is every reason to assume that if it could be made a 2 way affair - it would have been.
This is all strong evidence that they are one way deals - and this is fundemental in the question to this thread - it would mean that someone would have had to perfom portus - as such who was it.
I know we can all too and fro over the portkey thing till the sun goes down - but you have to remember it is a fundemetal part of the question of how the spirits knew and how was it changed ...
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
Okay here is my try at this again for the sake of loving this thread--the spirits knew because they saw the charm being performed--if they could do any magic themselves--Volde and the death eaters would be hurt
James and Lily would have kept their eye on Snape and Volde
Cedric and Frank would have kept their eye on Wormtail and Volde
Bertha would be looking at everyone
So Lily and James told Harry to go towards the portkey right?
That to me equals Snape--
The spirits are shadows of their former selves and personally the parents knew Snape and were killed by Volde--well thats the way I see it right now

I think a spirit would have given Harry a hint to DD being there--unless someone wants to speculate to one of the death eaters being a hero
 

Athena

Time Turners
Why was the portkey changed? Was it changed to bring Harry back to Hogwarts? Or maybe bring someone else to Hogwarts?
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
So you are implying that Volde or a death eater changed it for a trip to Hogwarts to display the 2 dead champions? interesting but would that have been kept a secret from Harry? Volde doesnt mind telling his plans--he would have bragged about this idea I think
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Was Barty Crouch Jr a double agent? Did he change the port key knowing Harry would return? Did he perhaps have a vendetta against Voldemort, so taught Harry as best he could in the hope that Harry could escape Voldemort after he regained his body?





Another point about Pettigrew...I don't think he would make his effort to save Harry known to anybody. His first attempt at it took place in the beginning of GoF when he tried to convince Voldemort to use just any wizard. He said that Harry Potter meant nothing to him, which I think raised Voldemort's suspicions. Pettigrew wouldn't want to die to save Harry, so in an attempt, he secretly changed the port key.
I admit that I imagine him repaying his debt in a much more spectactular way, so changing the port key might not be enough (essentially, he hasn't saved Harry's life, merely prolonged it).
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
It is plausible but unlikely Barty Crouch Jnr was a double agent - only because I still feel a portkey is a single trip - as such he couldnt have got it to return ..
Then of course we have Voldemort and Snape - how bad a judge must Voldemort be if he had a second double agent in his midsts - wouldnt it be too funny :D

Athena raised an interesting point above - I think if you look at what she said logically you could see another way of looking at it - and indeed perhaps a logical reason the portkey was set the way it was :)
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only a moment ... but we will give you time ... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts ... do you understand, Harry?" (GoF, pg 667 US)

The Portkey wasn't changed by anyone of the Death Eaters, it was changed by Lily. She's the one who led the distraction so Harry could get away, saving his life again from Voldemort.
 

kausarqadir

Time Turners
Fortescue said:
Quote:
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only a moment ... but we will give you time ... you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts ... do you understand, Harry?" (GoF, pg 667 US)
The Portkey wasn't changed by anyone of the Death Eaters, it was changed by Lily. She's the one who led the distraction so Harry could get away, saving his life again from Voldemort.

interesting then. it changes the whole situation. i didnt notice that one. so this means that shadows/ ghosts CAN do magic..... otherwise why would lily tell about giving time to harry?

Blaise said:
If anyone can point out to me a part of the books that indicates a two way portkey then I would love to see it -

page 66, The Port Key, GoF
'what sort of objects are Portkeys?' said Harry curiously.
'well, they can be anything,' said Mr. Weasley. 'Unobtrusive things, obviously, so Muggles dont go picking them up and playing with them... stuff they'll just think is litter...'

this gives me the idea of 2 ways portkeys otherwise why were they worried about muggles picking them up.... if they werent two ways, or not dangerous at all.

secondly, if it is pre arranged time, then how did Moody (Crouch jr) know the exact time of harry touching cup.
third, if Moody's eye was helping Crouch jr to see through the walls of labyrinth, then why didnt he notice both cedric and harry touching the cup at the same time.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
I reckon Moody/Crouch wouldn't have cared that Cedric and Harry went for it at the same time, because he knew Cedric would just be killed. Had Cedric reached the cup first, I believe Moody/Crouch would not have bothered changing it, and risk failing rather than sending V the wrong wizard, or else he'd have done something drastic to get rid of Cedric in the last few metres.

As for the pre-arranged time of the portkey, we have seen several times a portkey set up without notice - the statues head in the ministry, the object used after Mr Weasley was attacked....The Quidditch Cup portkeys had pre arranged times so that the wizards would arrived in an organised fashion

I do agree with kausarqadir though with Mr Weasley's explanation of portkeys. It could mean that portkeys are whatever the user needs them to be.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
kausarqadir said:
interesting then. it changes the whole situation. i didnt notice that one. so this means that shadows/ ghosts CAN do magic..... otherwise why would lily tell about giving time to harry?

this gives me the idea of 2 ways portkeys otherwise why were they worried about muggles picking them up.... if they werent two ways, or not dangerous at all.

secondly, if it is pre arranged time, then how did Moody (Crouch jr) know the exact time of harry touching cup.
third, if Moody's eye was helping Crouch jr to see through the walls of labyrinth, then why didnt he notice both cedric and harry touching the cup at the same time.

I don't quite understand how the Porkey's work. Look at the times we have seen them used: when the group used the manky old boot to go to the World Cup, the Triwizard Trophy, the kettle in Dumbledore's office, and the statue head in the Ministry - the first two, the boot and the trophy were preset by someone. I assume the boot was set by the Ministry and it was obviously on a timer as they had to touch it at the precise moment. Moody/Crouch set the Triwizard Trophy. It seemed to be set for the first person who touched it. The kettle in Dumbledore's office and the statue head were different. Dumbledore turned both these objects into Portkey's and held on to them until the time the objects transported their passengers. In the other examples whomever was touching the Porkey at the time it transported were whisked away, but in both cases Dumbledore remained behind, so maybe you can also set them for the number of passengers to be transported.

I guess you can make a Porkey work anyway you want depending on your intentions.

As kashlie said, Moody/Crouch probably wouldn't have allowed Cedric to reach the trophy alone. He was watching the whole thing through the bushes he admitted to Dumbledore later - I'm sure if Cedric got to the trophy first, he would have been taken out before he actually touched it.
 

Athena

Time Turners
Thanks Blaise ;)

I just thought it might be easier to figure out who changed the portkey if we knew why it was changed :p

I have to think that Voldemort would have thought about what was to happen after he killed Harry in the cemetary--- He would want to do as much damage as possible before the rest of the Magical world knew he had returned. Right??
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
Athena raised an interesting point above - I think if you look at what she said logically you could see another way of looking at it - and indeed perhaps a logical reason the portkey was set the way it was :)


Athena said:
Why was the portkey changed? Was it changed to bring Harry back to Hogwarts? Or maybe bring someone else to Hogwarts?

I guess my only problem with this would be that Voldemort didn't want anyone at Hogwarts to know what happened to Harry, and he really didn't want anyone to know he got his body back and his followers. He didn’t want or intend for anyone to return to Hogwarts, Death Eater or otherwise, who would draw attention to his return. Imagine what would have happened if Harry would have died and neither he nor Cedric would have ever returned to Hogwarts. It would have become one of those legends like the Quidditch referees that disappear during a match and end up in the Sahara Desert.
 

Athena

Time Turners
Fortescue said:
I guess my only problem with this would be that Voldemort didn't want anyone at Hogwarts to know what happened to Harry, and he really didn't want anyone to know he got his body back and his followers. He didn’t want or intend for anyone to return to Hogwarts, Death Eater or otherwise, who would draw attention to his return. Imagine what would have happened if Harry would have died and neither he nor Cedric would have ever returned to Hogwarts. It would have become one of those legends like the Quidditch referees that disappear during a match and end up in the Sahara Desert.

I think just the opposite --- It's a classic sneak attack ---

If Harry died, Voldemort could then go back to Hogwarts with his deatheaters and probably take out a large number of the very people who would oppose him. Dumbledore didn't know Barty Crouch Jr. wasn't the real Mad Eye Moody. He wouldn't be expecting anyone to appear at the entrance of the Maze casting spells all over the place.

It's a classic tactical move.

Voldemort only adapted his situation once Harry lived and the portkey was gone. It was more advantageous at that point to lay low and allow the magical world to believe Harry, Dumbledore, and the rest were crazy and Voldmort was still a harmless threat.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
I know everyone thinks Pettigrew a complete coward, but the fact remains that he was sorted as a Gryffindor, and thus DOES have courage! Peter had the perfect oportunity to change the cup to a return portkey when he went back for Harry's wand. And indeed Lilly would have noticed him going as a rat, and most likely understood just what he had done. It is argued that this only "prolonged" Harry's life, but what is saving a life but simply prolonging it untill we must all ultimately die? I have questions about whether this indeed paid his debt to Harry however. James saved Snapes life once, but Snape has actually protected Harry on several occasions, in MHO to repay the debt he owes James. So perhaps Pettigrew still has some "saving" yet to do.
 

kashlie

afraid of my own shadow
Sirius Potter Fan said:
James saved Snapes life once, but Snape has actually protected Harry on several occasions, in MHO to repay the debt he owes James

SPF, you need to take this over to another thread regarding the night the Potters died and whether someone else was there ;)

I agree, I think Pettigrew changed the portkey, if indeed it was changed. He had motive and opportunity, and the fact is, the shadows were merely echos of those Voldemort had died. They couldn't possibly perform magic!
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Athena said:
Voldemort only adapted his situation once Harry lived and the portkey was gone. It was more advantageous at that point to lay low and allow the magical world to believe Harry, Dumbledore, and the rest were crazy and Voldmort was still a harmless threat.

"Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself at the moment," said Sirius. "it would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up."
"Or rather, you messed it up for him," said Lupin with a satisfied smile.
"How?" Harry asked perplexedly.
"You weren't supposed to survive!" said Sirius. "Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness."
"And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore," said Lupin. "And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once." (OotP, pg 92)

I'm sure that Voldemort wouldn't have popped onto the lawn at Hogwarts using the Portkey concidering, as I said before, he didn't want anyone to know he'd gotten his body back and would be building his army and looking for new followers.
 

Athena

Time Turners
The only problem with the conversation between Harry, Sirius, and Lupin is that there is no way they could know what Voldemort had planned for that night.

Yes, Harry definitely did mess up Voldemort's plan by surviving, but which plans did he mess up.

Now (in the OOTP) Voldemort would absolutely want to keep his rebirth quiet. So he could recruit more allies. Gain more strength to go up against the Ministry and an Informed Dumbledore who has his guard up more vigliantly now. He has the Order back together now. He knows Voldemort is back and will be ready to fight.

He wasn't then.... he would be an easier target during the time of the Third Task. Voldemort had the advantage then. He would take that opportunity.

He would have been able to take out Fudge and had a good chance of disposing of Dumbledore -- not to mention how many of the staff of Hogwarts and the families that were there for the task.

With Dumbledore gone, and a "massacre" at Hogwarts, Voldemort wouldn't have to look far to replenish his troops.

Like I said above, The Order couldn't know his original plans for the night in the cemetary. They could only assume from the events that followed Harry's return to Hogwarts.

OOTP said:
"How do you know what his plans are?" Harry asked quickly.
"Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea," said Lupin, "and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate."
(emphasis added by me)
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Since this has gotten totally off topic :rolleyes: all I can say is that Dumbledore knew what was going on and what Voldemort's plans were, not only because of Harry, but because of his little spy, Snape. He sent Snape out that same night after the tournament to start his spying again. I guess I'd assume that's where they got their information about Voldemort's plans.

Back to the Portkey - I believe Lily changed the Portkey back, as I said before, the only other one with the opportunity was Wormtail when he went to fetch Harry's wand, but I don't think he would have done something against Voldemort at that time since he'd just gotten his shiny new hand, and the Lily ghost wouldn't have known about it if he had as she hadn't come out of Voldemort's wand yet.

EDIT: I read the oversized paperback of GoF and found that this part of the chapter, Priori Incantatem has been corrected in the paperback version. JKR said the original hardback was wrong in the order that James and Lily came out of Voldemort's wand. In the hardback, James came out first, then Lily. In the paperback the order has been corrected and Lily came out first and told Harry to wait for his father. I guess it could have been either of them that changed the Portkey when I read both versions. The wording is almost identical except for their discriptions when they came out of the wand.
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
So you are under the impression that these shadows can cast magic--
Is there anything to support the idea that a spirit can do magic---besides the Voldemort angle :cool:

I could go either way but if a spirit can do magic--I would guess Lily changed the portkey
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sure once again on JKR's site she explains about the shadows ... as in they were just that.
I think it was when she was talking about the pictures etc and how they interact - the shadows are a representation of the essence of the person - they arent intelligent, living (there is a word for this) presences - more just shadows of the person.
I dont think that the shadows were capable of even holding a wand nevermind casting spells - because if they could I am sure Lily and James would have done more to help Harry than just cast portus at the Trophy!
 
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