Who Changed the Portkey?

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
In the book, the misty forms were called echoes of the person. I guess my question is if they didn't have some kind of substance other then being a mist or a visual illusion, how could they stop Voldemort from chasing Harry before he made it to the Cedric and the Portkey? They had to have some type of power, either magical or physical to impede Voldemort's path long enough for Harry to get away. I don't think something with absolutely no substance could have stopped Voldemort.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Voldemort was freaked out!
He had all these spirits coming out and obscuring his view of events - coupled with the Priori Incantem moments - the wands locked together the whole deal.
He was prolly that bewildered at what was happening he was also prolly at his most vunerable.
I think given what was happening it would have taken all he had to comprehend what was happening.
Harry had the assist from the spirits - he was under advice - to Voldemort they were a distraction that served to give Harry enough time to make his getaway.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
Voldemort was freaked out!
He had all these spirits coming out and obscuring his view of events - coupled with the Priori Incantem moments - the wands locked together the whole deal.
He was prolly that bewildered at what was happening he was also prolly at his most vunerable.
I think given what was happening it would have taken all he had to comprehend what was happening.
Harry had the assist from the spirits - he was under advice - to Voldemort they were a distraction that served to give Harry enough time to make his getaway.

That is completely true - Voldemort was freaked out through the entire scene. Harry noted the look of terror in his eyes when the wands connected and through everything that followed. I just think there was something more to them then just an echo. They obviously could think for themselves as each one spoke to Harry, even Frank and Bertha, neither of who had ever met him. James had (or Lily, depending on the version of the book you read,) one of them had the capability to tell Harry what he had to do - I guess my thought of an echo is something that repeats, but obviously Harry had never been in that particular situation and I'm pretty sure that James and/or Lily had never had to say those exact words to any other person before. There had to be some type of magic involved with their aiding Harry either through the echoes or because of Harry's connection with Fawkes - it's just my thoughts though :D
 

Sir Cadogan

Noble Heart, Steely Sinew
Fortescue said:
That is completely true - Voldemort was freaked out through the entire scene. Harry noted the look of terror in his eyes when the wands connected and through everything that followed. I just think there was something more to them then just an echo.

I agree with you, Fortescue, I also think there is more substance to these spirits than what we usually expect of an "echo".
But I want to add a particular reason why Voldemort is so terrified. There are these "large beads of light [...] sliding up and down the thread connecting the wands", and they are first moving towards Harry's wand, but then with an enormous effort of will, supported through the Phoenix song he hears within himself, Harry manages to force the beads back, they slowly slide in Voldemort's direction, and when the first one touches the tip of Voldemort's wand, the "shadows" begin to leave the wand.

So, what I think shocks Voldemort are two things: First, he loses the battle of wills as he is unable to force the beads of light the other way; second, if he knows about "priori incantatem", then he also knows that his victims will somehow try to help Harry (if he hasn't heard of "p.i." before, which I doubt, he is just as confused about it as Harry is).

Sorry for getting a tiny bit off topic, but it seemed important in this context.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I also wonder how they could converse both with Harry and Voldemort if they didn't have some type of substance. They were giving Harry words of encouragement while saying things to Voldemort that Harry couldn't hear. I'm sure it wasn't them asking him about the weather :D

I thought back to the suggestion of Wormtail changing the Porkey - if he did indeed do that then that would mean he has paid his life debt to Harry and Harry is probably not aware of it. If Wormtail did do it, does that mean that Harry might have a slightly false sense of security believing that Wormtail still owes Harry his life, when in reality he already paid that debt?

To add to that, I wonder how misty James would know that Wormtail had changed the Porkey?
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
This is just a thought I had the other day. . .I was reading through the chapter, and trying to figure out who had the oportunity, but there just doens't seem to be anyone, and I really don't belive that the "shadows" of the killed persons would have been able to do magic, so. . . my theory is this.

the Cup was at the middle of the maze, where no one could see through the 20 ft high bushes. so if it were close, how would they know who won? It had to be a portkey that would bring the winner to the grand stand at the maze entrance right?

So, Barty (as Moody) volunteers to take the cup into the maze, places his portus charm on it, and leaves, well. . . then Dumbledore, unknowing places another charm on it, not knowing what Barty did right. My guess is that, if an object has two portus charms on it, it will act on the first one first, and the second one next. So, when Harry and Cedric touched it together, it took them to the graveyard, then when Harry came back to it, it took him to the grandstand at the maze entrance. I know this doesn't explain just how the shadows knew it would work though. so, it really doesn't satisfy me.

My other thought on this is as I said before, that Peter put the charm on it when he went to retrieve Harry's wand, and what I have to add to that, is that if Peter used Harry's wand, then the information of what the wand had been used for could have been present in the thread of light that bound the two wands, so that is how the shadows knew that the cup would return Harry to Hogwarts.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Isnt a wand required to perfom Portus?
Since that would have been the only way of re-setting the port key - how would a ghost be able to do that?
Where would they have got the wand?
I like the idea of duel portus charms placed on the port key but I say again - we have never seen an instance of a two way porkey but we have seen them discarded after use and it stated they will need to be re-charged again.
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
Just because we have never seen a dual portkey, does not mean that they don't exist. We also haven't seen the need of a dual portkey before GoF. (actualy I don't think we saw a portkey at all before GoF) We never saw a prophesy globe before OotP, but they had existed. But, that still doesn't explain how the ghosts knew what would happen.
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
I think our choices so far have been Wormtail - probably the most obvious one, since he had to walk right past the Porkey when he went to fetch Harry's wand. It was mentioned that one of the Death Eaters that Voldemort did not name might have been Snape, (I don't remember if it was in this thread or another) :D
I also thought that one of the unnamed Death Eaters might be Narcissa Malfoy. Draco did hint at her being one of the hooded DEs at the World Cup. If she wasn't out there with the others, why wasn't she with her son? I wonder if it's possible that she was one of the unnamed DEs, (it would make sense and show how she might have met Lucius, especially since her sister is a long-time DE as well.) Maybe the motherly instincts in her :eek: were enough to make her do something like change the Portkey instead of watching a young boy die.

I would assume as the Prior Incantatem began and all the DE's were milling about outside the web of light, she, or someone else could have had the opportunity to activate the Portkey to go back to Hogwarts. If it were Wormtail, he would have had to do it with Harry's wand, because someone said earlier that Wormtail didn't seem to have a wand of his own, and I agree with that. If he did have his own wand he wouldn't have been using Voldemort's to kill Bertha Jorkin, (as Voldemort was still a mist at the time and couldn't hold a wand) and Cedric.

I just don't believe it could have been Snape because the timing was not right. He would have had to leave Hogwarts grounds when Voldemort touched Wormtail's arm in order to apparate, then on the return trip he'd have to return outside Hogwarts grounds and make a b-line for Dumbledore as he seemed to be there for Dumbledore almost immediately.

I guess my one supporting argument for Snape being one of the unnamed Death Eaters, and how the time frame might work is if Snape did flee the grounds, apparate to the graveyard, change the Portkey while everyone was busy watching Voldemort and Harry, disapparate back to the Hogwarts gates and run to meet Dumbledore and McGonagall as they entered the castle following Mad-Eye/Crouch. He didn't show up on the scene until we saw him with Dumbledore and McGonagall. It's pretty tight timing, but it could work. Another assumption might be added - he could do all this and it might work if he was an animagus and turned into a bat, a vulture or something and flew outside the grounds to apparate, and the same on the return trip. If all this were done with precise timing, Snape might have been there to change the Portkey for Harry. :D

I'm done babbling now :D
 

Sirius Potter Fan

Night Patroll
No, not babling. . . a window of possibility that does seem to make sense. I like the "animagus" idea of the bat. we were sent on a wild goose hunt by JKR droping the "bat" thing and leading many to speculate that Snape was a vampire, then she shot that down, but he is still often reffered to as "batlike" or "an over grown bat" so the animagus thing could really work. But of course, that wouldn't explaine how the "echos" knew what had happened. I don't think it could have been any of the DE's though. they are described as being in a near panic and trying to find a way to help their master. Voldemort has to tell them to "do nothing" as he himself is near panic. And Narcissa. . .no. . . I don't think her "motherly" instincts would bring her to betray Voldemort. The DE's are just as Afraid of Voldemort as they are loyal. It all just seems to come back to Pettigrew...he had the oportunity (going to get Harry's wand), motive (his debt to Harry) and the means (Harry's wand). And this also explains how the echos would have known about the portkey, because the echo of that spell would have been available in the connection between the wands. I do believe that Snape would have been there, he had to make an apperance if he were to keep up his front as a double agent.
 

Kingsley

Time Turners
Snape as a bat makes sense
Snape as an animagus would explain how he had it in for the Marauders and vice versa
Think I feel a new thread
I definitely think that the spirits were all seeing to the effect of noticing what was happening--when they came out of the wands there was no confusion
I dont find it a hard stretch for them to know of a changed portkey.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not 100% sure - but I think JKR killed the rumour that Snape was a vampire ...
Will try and see if I can find it - but I am sure I read that at some point ...
 

Weasleyfanforever

Time Turners
Is this the one you were talking about? Pretty much the only thing I could find on Snape not being a vampire, and I looked in several places... :p

World Book Day Chat 2004 said:
Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires?
JK Rowling replies -> Erm... I don't think so.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
You rule! :D
That will be the one!
I think that counts as a 'nope' to me ....
It was a shame because I actually really liked the idea of Snape and vampire
This was what lead onto people speculating that Snape could turn into a bat ... so while it doesnt deal with that - I think JKR would have given a bit more of an answer if there was a chance Snape was a bat ... but that could be just me ...
 

yarvelling

Time Turners
Perhaps a portkey is a two-way thing...it doesn't just go the one way, but after taking the traveller to their destination, it 'resets' itself for the return journey; to wherever the traveller had originaly departed....???
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Yarvey, that doesn't seem like a good idea... Suppose a wizard uses a Portkey to go somewhere, like the old boot the Weasely's used to get to the World Cup, and it ended up getting thrown out or tossed in the weeds when they were done. A Muggle could pick it up and use it. The Portkey's used for the World Cup were on a timer - sort of like a bus schedule. They were set to activate at a certain time, so I'd assume they would have to have a new spell cast upon them to be used again.

The best candidate mentioned so far would be Wormtail, since we are sure he was there, but if he did change the Portkey with Harry's wand, that means he has paid Harry back the life-debt owed and Harry no longer holds that card against Voldemort. I don't want to think about that :rolleyes:
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Varvey - if your review back you will see all the reasons that a portkey is a one way deal .. It's kinda interesting because that is what most people's initial answer to the question is.

We also have to look at Snape - he was suppose to be at Hogwarts - also depending on how you see the commentary by Voldemort as to the missing Death Eaters - you might rule him out as the most loyal, indeed the coward or one that thinks he has left forever and will be killed ...

Forte - have to agree with your own contradiction there - I think Wormtail is still to pay his debt - as such he cannot be the person that did it ...

So - the search continues :p
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
We also have to look at Snape - he was suppose to be at Hogwarts - also depending on how you see the commentary by Voldemort as to the missing Death Eaters - you might rule him out as the most loyal, indeed the coward or one that thinks he has left forever and will be killed ...

Snape just doesn't seem likely. I know we've dissected this thoroughly, but if he doesn't turn into a bat, as we know JKR has squashed that theory, I just don't see how else he could have answered Voldemort's call unless he had his own Portkey at Hogwarts and used that to get to the graveyard.

Blaise said:
Forte - have to agree with your own contradiction there - I think Wormtail is still to pay his debt - as such he cannot be the person that did it ...

So - the search continues :p

If it wasn't Wormtail then I will feel better. The fact that he could have already paid his debt to Harry, and Harry to be unaware of this is disturbing. As for the echoes of his parents changing the Portkey; there's nothing to substantiate or refute it actually, just throughout the discussion, it seems that most people don't believe it's possible that the ghostly apparitions could manage magic as they are not living beings anymore. So, in my thinking, I am rather at a dead end. I don't agree with the two-way Porkey idea as it seems that would have been disclosed by Crouch.

The only other explanation I can think of is that the Tri-Wizard cup already had one spell on it - the one placed on it to take the champion out of the maze and place them in front of the judges. When Moody/Crouch placed his spell on the cup it simply added to the one that was already there. Thus, Moody/Crouch's spell took effect first, and the spell that was placed on the cup to return the champion out of the maze and in front of the judges took effect with the second touch of the cup, and actually, no one at the graveyard helped Harry and we can be secure in the fact that Wormtail still owes Harry his life.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
... you cant apparate on Hogwarts grounds - but throw a leg over the boundary and see what happens right ... ;)

Athena one said she believed that the cup had 2 spells placed on it - one to take Harry to the Graveyard - and one to return Voldemort to Hogwarts ... would help cut past all that security wouldn't it ...
Given the apparent lack of conclusive evidence - this is actually seems like a good idea to me now :p
If you think laterally about it - one to get Harry there - with a spell that was sealed in the protective area of Hogwarts - and one that returns it back - we know it acted like a port key on the way out - what if there is a similar version but more of a retrieval mechanism?
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Blaise said:
... you cant apparate on Hogwarts grounds - but throw a leg over the boundary and see what happens right ... ;)

Athena one said she believed that the cup had 2 spells placed on it - one to take Harry to the Graveyard - and one to return Voldemort to Hogwarts ... would help cut past all that security wouldn't it ...
Given the apparent lack of conclusive evidence - this is actually seems like a good idea to me now :p
If you think laterally about it - one to get Harry there - with a spell that was sealed in the protective area of Hogwarts - and one that returns it back - we know it acted like a port key on the way out - what if there is a similar version but more of a retrieval mechanism?

I believe it could have two spells, but I don't buy the remark about one spell to return Voldemort to Hogwarts. The first spell was probably placed on the cup by Dumbledore and had the time element to it so it wouldn't activate until after the final task started so the cup could be carried out to the maze. The second spell done my Moody, was probably set by him at the time he placed the cup on the plynth, so the first person to touch it would go to Voldemort. Regarding the return trip to Hogwarts was meant for Voldemort, he, Voldemort didn't wan't anyone to know he had gotten his body back and wouldn't have just popped into the middle of Hogwarts grounds right in front of Dumbledore and the rest of the wizards there. As Sirius told Harry in OotP, no one was supposed to know Voldemort was back because Harry was supposed to have died and no one would have been the wiser until Voldemort had time to rebuild his followers and could take over properly.
 
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