The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
Not really interested in what people want to happen, as JKR will do exactly as she wants, more interested in knowing if you think Harry will die in the end, to serve the needs of the story.
Will Harry die?
- Thread starter The Frozen North
- Start date
The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
Ok, here's my two penneth......
I voted "No". My logic has several points which I'm absolutely sure are all flawed, but hey, if we can't dissect each other's arguments then what is the point of this site?
The concept of sacrifice to achieve results, in particular, good defeating evil, is biblical in it's age, as is the concept of truely suffering for what one believes to be right, so yes, Harry is going to have a rough time and probably loose some people with whom he has very close relationships. Either that or complete innocents will suffer, which, to a true hero is even worse than friends succumbing. However, despite the links with theology that have been made several times (by myself amongst others) on this site, I do not believe that JKR is out to create a martyr, to be revered by future wizarding generations, as catholics do with the saints. We have seen many times how uncomfortable Harry is with the hero worship he experiences and it would be too ironical for me to stomach if Harry was then elevated to "sainthood" by his final act, as a character he would hate it!!!
In response to the HiaH argument, personally this is not one of my favourites but even if Harry is a Horcrux, where does the idea come from that the object containing the horcrux needs to be destroyed in order to destroy the horcrux itself. Ok so we know that in destroying Tom Riddle's diary, the horcrux within was destroyed but similarly we also know that when DD destroyed the horcrux in the ring, the ring itself remained unharmed.
So there you have it, feel free to destroy my arguments, as I will feel free to do the same with yours.
Just a quick footnote, if you see the thread "Who will die?" from way back in August last year, you will find that this discussion has been going for a long time. You will also find that I am either a hypocrit or that I must be allowed to change my viewpoint as back then I said that Harry would die
I voted "No". My logic has several points which I'm absolutely sure are all flawed, but hey, if we can't dissect each other's arguments then what is the point of this site?
The concept of sacrifice to achieve results, in particular, good defeating evil, is biblical in it's age, as is the concept of truely suffering for what one believes to be right, so yes, Harry is going to have a rough time and probably loose some people with whom he has very close relationships. Either that or complete innocents will suffer, which, to a true hero is even worse than friends succumbing. However, despite the links with theology that have been made several times (by myself amongst others) on this site, I do not believe that JKR is out to create a martyr, to be revered by future wizarding generations, as catholics do with the saints. We have seen many times how uncomfortable Harry is with the hero worship he experiences and it would be too ironical for me to stomach if Harry was then elevated to "sainthood" by his final act, as a character he would hate it!!!
In response to the HiaH argument, personally this is not one of my favourites but even if Harry is a Horcrux, where does the idea come from that the object containing the horcrux needs to be destroyed in order to destroy the horcrux itself. Ok so we know that in destroying Tom Riddle's diary, the horcrux within was destroyed but similarly we also know that when DD destroyed the horcrux in the ring, the ring itself remained unharmed.
So there you have it, feel free to destroy my arguments, as I will feel free to do the same with yours.
Just a quick footnote, if you see the thread "Who will die?" from way back in August last year, you will find that this discussion has been going for a long time. You will also find that I am either a hypocrit or that I must be allowed to change my viewpoint as back then I said that Harry would die
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drummerx357
Time Turners
I do indeed think (I am not fully convinced) that Harry will die in the final book; it would be I think the most fitting ending, but then again, this all began as a children's book.
In response to the above entry, I think the main reason Harry didn't like the attention and hero-worship was that he thought them undeserved. But if he now destroys the most powerful dark wizard ever, I think that he will be a bit more accepting of at least some praise (if he lives, that is).
It is interesting, Frozen North, that you mention a biblical struggle, but that is part of the reason I think he will die--how do most Christians believe that evil and sin were ultimately vanquished? By the sacrifice, or, more accurately, the death of Jesus. No I don't think Harry, if he succeeds, should be considered saintly.
He should be considered messianic.
In response to the above entry, I think the main reason Harry didn't like the attention and hero-worship was that he thought them undeserved. But if he now destroys the most powerful dark wizard ever, I think that he will be a bit more accepting of at least some praise (if he lives, that is).
It is interesting, Frozen North, that you mention a biblical struggle, but that is part of the reason I think he will die--how do most Christians believe that evil and sin were ultimately vanquished? By the sacrifice, or, more accurately, the death of Jesus. No I don't think Harry, if he succeeds, should be considered saintly.
He should be considered messianic.
The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
drummerx357 said:
I'm sure he'd really hate that!!!!!!!!!
Just a little theology lesson for you here drummerx357 (and I don't mean to be patronising but I am quite a religious person so I have a good insight into what I am talking about here) but the concept of atonement in Christianity is often very confused. As you said, many peoples think that Christ paid for the world's sins on the crucifix but this is in fact not core Christian belief. We believe that Christ paid for our sins in The Garden Of Gethsemane, where he was said to have bled from every pore as if he were sweating blood. The crucification was merely a form of execution (a symbolic one yes) but the important thing about this was his death and subsequent resurrection, breaking the bonds of death for us all in order that we may all resurrect in the millennium (1000 year period when Christ shall return and rule on the earth whilst Satan is bound). As far as Sacrament or Communion is concerned, the wine (or water as some use) represents Christ's blood (Gethsemane) and the bread or wafer represents Christ's body (Crucification and resurrection), both of these coming from Christ's own prophetic actions during The Last Supper.
Sorry to anyone if they think I am preaching here, I'm really not, i just wanted to explain how martyrdom is often misunderstood.
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drummerx357
Time Turners
Harry certainly doesn't seem to mind the praise he recieves after the publication of the Quibbler article, or that for a top-notch Quidditch or the hailings upon completion of the first two tasks of the Triwizard Cup; and I believe in the first book he makes a reference to this in Book 1, sometime after his first Qudditch match. Though, perhaps you are right, TFN, that he would not appreciate the elevation to a level of gratitude comparable to hero-worship on a larger scale, as these examples all occur within the school, and not from the entire magical community.
With regards to the religious aspect, I think we simply have different fundamental beliefs. I am in fact a fairly devout (in theology, not social dogma) Catholic, and so when I said "most", I think I meant "most Catholics".
Catholics believe that it was not just the agony in the garden, but Jesus' entire Passion, from that at Gethsemane to his scourging under Pilate, to his condemnation, to carrying of the cross, and finally his suffering and death at Golgatha, that was payment for humanity's sins (Hence Mel Gobson's Passion, which shows all of these evnts).
Though (methinks) that we both do believe in Jesus' resurrection; so maybe, if we do intend to draw on this particuar aspect of religion as a harbinger of Harry's fate it is possible that just as Jesus did, Harry might end up alive, as the conqueror of evil.
With regards to the religious aspect, I think we simply have different fundamental beliefs. I am in fact a fairly devout (in theology, not social dogma) Catholic, and so when I said "most", I think I meant "most Catholics".
Catholics believe that it was not just the agony in the garden, but Jesus' entire Passion, from that at Gethsemane to his scourging under Pilate, to his condemnation, to carrying of the cross, and finally his suffering and death at Golgatha, that was payment for humanity's sins (Hence Mel Gobson's Passion, which shows all of these evnts).
Though (methinks) that we both do believe in Jesus' resurrection; so maybe, if we do intend to draw on this particuar aspect of religion as a harbinger of Harry's fate it is possible that just as Jesus did, Harry might end up alive, as the conqueror of evil.
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The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
Thanks for your comments drummerx357, well thought out and inteligent. I certainly do beleive in the Resurrection but in this case feel that it is not too relevant as in order to draw comparisons with Chritianity we need a protagonist who is, in terms of the story, free from sin. I don't think that JKR is trying to draw this kind of parallel and if she were, it's been done in a much better way before in C.S. Lewis's "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" where Azlan was innocent of the betrayal that he was killed for, and in fact paid for the "sins" of others by sacrificing himself. Heck, he even ressurected . As we have seen, Harry is not innocent or free of sin. Ok he's not evil either, he's just a regular teenager with an extrordinary burden and a few special qualities. I think a better comparison is that of LoTR. Frodo was an ordinary Hobbit with a few special qualities and an extrordinary burden. Frodo too survived his ordeal but life could never return to normal for him. Frodo was able to leave the mortal realm by traveling with the Elves and I beleive that Harry will also have to leave the realm of the wizarding community, but how I'm not sure, maybe he becomes a muggle but if I know JKR's writing, she'll have something completely unexpected in store for him.
. As we have seen, Harry is not innocent or free of sin. Ok he's not evil either, he's just a regular teenager with an extrordinary burden and a few special qualities. I think a better comparison is that of LoTR. Frodo was an ordinary Hobbit with a few special qualities and an extrordinary burden. Frodo too survived his ordeal but life could never return to normal for him. Frodo was able to leave the mortal realm by traveling with the Elves and I beleive that Harry will also have to leave the realm of the wizarding community, but how I'm not sure, maybe he becomes a muggle but if I know JKR's writing, she'll have something completely unexpected in store for him.
Padma Patil
Dumbledore's Girl
I voted no, mainly because JKR has to have a way to end the story. Otherwise she will never hear the end of people saying, "Is there an eighth book? When is she going to write it?"
That is my sole reason for choosing no, she has to have a way to end it. However JRR Tolkien ended LotR fairly well without killing off the main characters. One just never knows.
That is my sole reason for choosing no, she has to have a way to end it. However JRR Tolkien ended LotR fairly well without killing off the main characters. One just never knows.
I've said it before in another post but I don't think JKR will kill Harry. It just doesn't portray the right message to kids and, after all, these books are predominantly written for children. Facing up to your enemies, doing what's right and then you die for it? I can't see her doing it.... She better not do it!!
I read somewhere that some British literary expert said that Harry won't die. I assume the person based their opinion off of other author's work. But then we know HP is very unique. Most children's books don't have the good guys dying all over the place while the bad guys live to fight another day, so the expert might be wrong.
..in my experience when someone says they are an expert and makes a call - they pretty much always get it wrong!
JKR is very much her own author and she isn't conventional and following conventional methods - as you said above she seems to have the bad guys being the victors on many occasions and if you are trying to shape the opinions and views of the masses - that isn't the stuff moral guidance is made of ...
I think she appreciated youngsters cope just fine with death and destruction - I mean hello video games!!
JKR is very much her own author and she isn't conventional and following conventional methods - as you said above she seems to have the bad guys being the victors on many occasions and if you are trying to shape the opinions and views of the masses - that isn't the stuff moral guidance is made of ...
I think she appreciated youngsters cope just fine with death and destruction - I mean hello video games!!
Hi, first-time poster, long-time reader here. At first I thought that Harry would be killed off, in a way, like others have mentioned just so that JK could finish it without any questions asked. But then I have come to realise that JK is on a bit of a mission lately, she's been standing up for her beliefs and speaking out in the press about how she would like her children to grow up in a normal sensible house etc.... So I got thinking that if JK killed harry off, that would mean that Voldemort would live ( i assume) and that is completely the opposite of what I think JK is trying to do with these books. I think she's trying to prove to young people that we can all be a bit like Harry and stand up to the badies in this world and be who we want to be. I don't think she'll kill Harry off. I think he will live.
The Frozen North said:Ok so we know that in destroying Tom Riddle's diary, the horcrux within was destroyed but similarly we also know that when DD destroyed the horcrux in the ring, the ring itself remained unharmed.
the ring was actually harmed. A crack had appeared down the centre of the stone.
.. but dont you feel if Harry is still left alive at the end of the book - we will all feel almost like there should be more?
I mean, will it be enough to say Harry lived happily ever after with Ginny and died a good old age?
We know that Dumbledore spent a large part of his life battling the evil forces of the world - now he is gone and Harry seems to stand as the new vanquisher - it seems he will also live a life looking over his shoulder - and just as Voldemort rose after the fall of Grindelwald - some start up will take the chance to rise from Voldemort's ashes ...
I'm not sure Harry living offers closure on the series - where him dying does with no doubts!
I mean, will it be enough to say Harry lived happily ever after with Ginny and died a good old age?
We know that Dumbledore spent a large part of his life battling the evil forces of the world - now he is gone and Harry seems to stand as the new vanquisher - it seems he will also live a life looking over his shoulder - and just as Voldemort rose after the fall of Grindelwald - some start up will take the chance to rise from Voldemort's ashes ...
I'm not sure Harry living offers closure on the series - where him dying does with no doubts!
cagedcactus
Sherbet Lemon
oh boy. very interesting discussion here.
I personally think that he will die. I think he could also be a horcrux, and will have to sacrifice himself in the end to make sure there is no return for Voldemort. Then again as prophecy says, "He will have power, the dark lord knows not." Maybe his courage of sacrificing himself some how relates to that power.
As Dumbledore told Riddle in OTP. There are worse things than death. Maybe that worse thing is what Riddle is living. Maybe that worse thing is being scared of death. Maybe that worse thing is living a cursed life like Riddle is living.
I personally think that he will die. I think he could also be a horcrux, and will have to sacrifice himself in the end to make sure there is no return for Voldemort. Then again as prophecy says, "He will have power, the dark lord knows not." Maybe his courage of sacrificing himself some how relates to that power.
As Dumbledore told Riddle in OTP. There are worse things than death. Maybe that worse thing is what Riddle is living. Maybe that worse thing is being scared of death. Maybe that worse thing is living a cursed life like Riddle is living.
The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
Maybe that worse thing is dying (or in deed living) knowing that you could have done something to prevent the suffering of others and not actually done it.cagedcactus said:
..or of course worse than death is living with the guilt and emotion of what you have done - Voldemort operates the way he does because he is emotionally devoid of love and caring - with a little help from Harry he could be made to feel it - I just think it will require Harry to remove all the horcruxes - try to kill him - he re-births from the horcrux in Harry - and then has more than just himself back - he understands the inadvisability of using a live host for a horcrux because the live host taints the horcrux and he has a little of Harry (well known for his love and caring) inside his new self - and now has all these wierd and alien emotions he never had before - I think nature will take it's course and Voldemort will be unable to live with these new emotions!
The Frozen North
Bloody Cold in Norway
Alz said:
Well that's it then, I guess there's no point in me reading book 7 then
Just let me know if this turns out to be wrong and I'll go and buy my copy. (and if you beleive that, you'll beleive andything - nice theory Alz, one of the better ones I've come across)Hey I have three versions of book 7 - you can have the wild guess, the really wild guess or indeed the 'utter out there' version - you are free to read and then see how it compares - I'm going with JKR will favour my 'utter out there' version ...
Don't worry - I have wilder theories - I still think there is a chance Harry is Voldemort ... that has to be my fav wildest one ...
Don't worry - I have wilder theories - I still think there is a chance Harry is Voldemort ... that has to be my fav wildest one ...