Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

At the end of CoS, right after Harry tricked Lucius into freeing Dobby, Lucius was just about to hit Harry with the AK, when Dobby laid the smack down on his former master.. My question is, would Lucius have suffered the same fate as Voldemort if he'd gotten the AK off? Was Harry's protection limited to just LV? Or would it be a universal thing where anyone trying to AK him gets a backfire? Clearly, his protection extended to Quirrel, but that could be because LV was using him as a host at the time. He shook hands with Lucius in the book store, and Lucius didn't turn to dust. Peter Petigrew grabbed him in POA, begging for mercy and didn't turn to dust.. So clearly it isn't a case of any Death Eater being killed on contact.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out, is exactly how far does Lily's protection extend? If say a random person decided to AK Harry, would they get the same result as LV or is it something unique to LV?
 

halliemei

Time Turners
Oh I hope not. ooh -- did I say that out loud?

Seriously, that is an interesting question. I've wondered about a lot of stuff with this. Technically, we don't really know what happened with VM's AK. We do know that VM made the prophesy happen by selecting Harry, though, which means that Lucius couldn't have killed him. But, that said, I doubt in the books that Lucius would have tried. I think that was creative license with the movies.
 

The Frozen North

Bloody Cold in Norway
Persaonally i beleive that the protection is just agains Voldermort, I would back this up by referring to GoF. Voldermort could have used the blood of any wizard to ressurect but chose to use Harry's, so as to get arround his protection, despite the extra risks involved.
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
The significance of using Harry's blood was a psychological thing for LV, I think. It irked him that this "kid" had managed to defy him several times already and LV couldn't even touch him.

I think the protection that Lily gave Harry is a bit odd anyway. It obviously saved Harry from LV's AK, but it didn't stop LV from using Crucio on Harry in that same graveyard. It also didn't protect Harry from Snape's rather nasty spell in HBP (where Buckbeak had to leap in to help). So, is Harry only protected of AKs or is he only protected from AKs from the one who murdered the one making the sacrfice--in this case LV?

And I think it's fair to ask how much of Lily's protection (that is in Harry's blood) is tied to the protective spells DD set up for Harry when he gave Harry to Lily's only remaining "blood" relative to be cared for.
 

The Frozen North

Bloody Cold in Norway
HeleneB said:
it didn't stop LV from using Crucio on Harry in that same graveyard.
But then by this time LV had used Harry's blood and according to his own theory, Harry was no longer protected from him!!
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
I see what you mean, but I'm not sure what using Harry's blood (for sure) did for LV except make it so he could touch Harry. That alone implies that Lily's sacrificial protection was unique to LV (some have wondered if it would protect Harry from all AKs). And there's still the link of Lily's blood to having to go to the Dursleys every summer for DD's protection. I have a feeling DD used that protection from Lily as part of his additional spells. Harry has still been protected to some degree from LV--I guess that's what LV's waiting for and why he didn't just have Draco or Snape kill Harry at the school?
 

The Frozen North

Bloody Cold in Norway
I never got the impression that Harry's protection at the Dursley's had anything to to with the protection that Lily's sacrifice gave him. DD said that in sending Harry to his aunt he was invocing a very old magic but regarding Lily's protection for Harry, DD said that it was completely unexpected and that his understanding of what happened was his own conclusions, it was never stated as absolute wizarding fact.
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Agreed with HeleneB here - the protection seems only to protect against Voldemort.
But I do feel it serves 2 levels of protection - let me see if I can explain that.
OK - Lily's sacrifice meant that Voldemort could not touch Harry - or so it seems to suggest a la AK being bounced.
But also remember Dumbledore also added protections that as long as Harry return to Privat Drive and Petunia - he would always be safe there - something like while he could call it home. That was also somewhat done via blood ...
SO - Lily sacrifice protected Harry from Voldemort - Dumbledore's protection meant Harry was protected while away from Hogwarts, I think this is the one that prevented DE's and the likes attacking him and continues to do so - otherwise you would have expected an attempt on the Dursley's by now :p

If Lucius had attempted an AK on Harry in Hogwarts - I think Harry would have died ... another reason to assume this is because of when Harry was chasing Snape/Malfoy in HBP, Harry was attacked by other DE's and was hurt to the point Snape joined in to prevent it ...
 

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
Voldemort killed Lily, "No, please don't kill him, kill me instead, blah, blah"

Harry was protected because his mother sacrificed her own life to Voldemort in order to save Harry. Malfoy had nothing to do with it, therefore, Harry wouldn't have the same protection from Lucius or any other Death Eater!

I don't think they realize that about Privet Drive yet. I wonder if a flock of Death Eaters will finally get a brain and show up at the Dursley's in the final book??? :)
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Here's what makes me think Harry's protection from DD is linked to Lily's sacrifice and extended beyond LV. OotP, pp 835-6
". . .Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters--and many of them are almost as terrible as he--were still at large and angry, desperate, and violent. And I had to make my decision too with regard to the years ahead. Did I believe that Voldemort was gone forever? No. I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing him as I have done, that he would not rest until he killed you. . .

"I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises and which he has always, therefore, underestimated--to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative. . .

". . .yet still she [Petunia] took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield, I could give you."
So, if DD wanted to protect Harry from the DEs, shouldn't DD's charm keep them from being able to kill Harry? If I'm reading this correctly, even if LV somehow neutralized Harry's protection in GoF, in CoS, Lucius would have experienced a bounceback spell--if that's what would happen in DD's charm.
 
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Alz

Administrator
Staff member
See like what I was saying above there - I think the charm Dumbledore placed and Petunia sealed was one that would keep Harry safe while in the muggle world ... Dumbledore always expected that at Hogwarts Harry would be safe because he is magically protected like all the other students and of course the school itself.
IMHO - I think Lucius could have killed Harry that day because the charm Dumbledore sealed only kept Harry safe outside of Hogwarts - as long as he returned 'home' once a year.
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
There is something curious about this blood protection and I get the feeling this is something else that was carefully worded by J.K.R.:D Here's what Voldemort says in GoF-
pg. 657-For he has been better protected then I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations care. Not even I can touch him there....
Dumbledore says-
HBP pg. 54- "As you will no doubt be aware, Harry comes of age in a year's time..
pg. 55-Harry, whom Lord Voldemort has already attempted to kill on a number of occasions, is in even greater danger now than the day when I left him upon your doorstep.......The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protection while he can still call this house "home"..The magic will cease to operate the moment Harry turns seventeen..
OOTP pg. 836-I am speaking of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day...I delivered you to her sister...she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you."
I have some questions here-Why would Lily's blood only protect Harry until he's seventeen? Why would Dumbledore use a charm that only protects Harry until he's seventeen? How does Dumbledore know what Lily did?
I would think that Lily's blood protection doesn't have a time limit on it-and Dumbledore's charm(whatever it was) is a seperate issue, and must have involved something we don't know about-maybe fidelius charm? It could have been designed to include deatheaters. I do have the feeling that it wouldn't be very simple to AK Harry-no matter who did it or where, because Voldemort marked him as his equal and made him a horcrux. Anyway this ties in to the missing pieces of what happened that night.
On a side note-I think it's quite telling when Dumbledore says-
OOTP pg. 835-Did I believe the Voldemort was gone forever? No. I knew not whether it would be ten, twenty, or fifty years before he returned, but I was sure that he would do so, and I was sure too, knowing him as I have done,that he would not rest until he killed you.
This tells me that Dumbledore Knew about a horcrux/the horcruxes when he took Harry to #4 Privet Drive and may tie in w/another thread;)
 

The Frozen North

Bloody Cold in Norway
Nice spot HelenB, it appears that Harry's protection at Privat Drive is related to Lily's sacrifice but I still get the impression that the protection was only afforded him whilst he was living with his aunt and possibly even only when he was in their home, after all, dementors were able to attack him whist he was out walking. I still say that the protection was Voldermort specific when out and about or at Hogwarts but against all magical attack when in his aunt's home.

Mind you, if the DEs had any brain, they'd have gone there, incapacitated his aunt, uncle and cousin using magic (we know magic works in the Dursley's house) and then killed Harry in a non-magical way........but then we wouldn't have a story would we:D
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Well, I'm not sure it's limited to while he's at the Dursleys. Each summer Harry's spent more and more time away from there--in HBP he was only there for two weeks. Why would DD think it so important to talk to the Dursleys (as DD's about to take Harry away) to get them to agree to allow Harry to return the following summer--so his protection will continue for that year--if the protection is only while he's at their home?
 
Ok, my brain is now hurting. I THINK I just found a hole in JKR's plot...

When DD "died", Harry was released from the invisble grasp that held him in place.. Ok, that charm/spell/jinx/whatever was broken, which leads one to conclude that upon a wizard's death, their charms/spells/jinxes/whatevers and broken.. Why did Snape and the gang have to run to the gate, to exit Hogwarts, before they could aparate (sp?) ? Wouldn't DD's protections have all vanished instantly, along with how he was holding Harry?

Furthermore... His protection of the Dursley homestead should also be broken, which means that Dursleys and Harry if he's still residing there, will be fair game for the DEs... Oh how I hope we see Dudley AK'd, Vernon sectumsempra'd and Petuia just tortured till she cries =)
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Umm - provocative thinking ...

OK- so first apparition at Hogwarts - it's in Hogwarts a History and I don't think it is a protection Dumbledore added and sustained - I think Hogwarts has it's own built in security

... another flaw was when the Weasley's flew out of Hogwarts on brooms in OoTP, Dumbledore had to mutter stuff to undo the protections in HBP - Weasley twins flew out - wanna challenge that on the basis 'on way out you don't need to remove them' - well Snape used spells to unlock the gates for Harry when he arrived late at the start of HBP :p

Perhaps JKR's latest poll might help this one - winning (sadly) is 'what happens to a secret when the secret keeper dies ...' - this could shed some light on how many magical protections are now under threat with Dumbledore's death ... or if he isn't dead might explain why people aren't frantic with fear (Number 12 jumps to mind!)
Anyways - sorry multiple digressions on my behalf!

To the latter - Lily invoked the magic that protected Harry from Voldemort - Dumbledore sealed a charm with Petunia that would keep Harry safe as long as he returned to the place he called home - although it seems to suggest just house, dementors and Harry under watch by Figg and Dung suggest outside of house he is fair game ...
A wizard is considered an adult when they reach 17 - that is the significance of why Harry looses the charm after he turns 17 - he should he able to stand on his own 2 feet - and most important - can do magic outside of Hogwarts!
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Vold. E. Mort said:
His protection of the Dursley homestead should also be broken, which means that Dursleys and Harry if he's still residing there, will be fair game for the DEs... Oh how I hope we see Dudley AK'd, Vernon sectumsempra'd and Petuia just tortured till she cries =)
Ow! Such viciousness! Though it would be rather satisfying, I must admit. A bit like DD's "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me" statement to LV in OotP. I have a feeling that something could happen when Harry turns 17. I heard somewhere the JK mentioned a character not able to do magic will perform some in a very stressful situation. Mrs. Figg, perhaps, since JK has also said Petunia is not a squib. Although it would make me laugh if it turned out Dudley could do some magic--be a squib.:p

Alz said:
... another flaw was when the Weasley's flew out of Hogwarts on brooms in OoTP, Dumbledore had to mutter stuff to undo the protections in HBP - Weasley twins flew out - wanna challenge that on the basis 'on way out you don't need to remove them' - well Snape used spells to unlock the gates for Harry when he arrived late at the start of HBP :p
But didn't DD up the protections once LV came out of the closet? That could account for the twins being able to fly out perhaps.

Alz said:
To the latter - Lily invoked the magic that protected Harry from Voldemort - Dumbledore sealed a charm with Petunia that would keep Harry safe as long as he returned to the place he called home - although it seems to suggest just house, dementors and Harry under watch by Figg and Dung suggest outside of house he is fair game ...
Perhaps, but I still read them as connected, since DD tied the one to the other with his refences to blood. I know what you're saying about the dementors. Perhaps DD was looking at that short space of time between Harry's leaving school at the end of HBP and turning 17. But what happens if he leaves right away as he said he would. How would DD's charm protect Harry at the Weasley home? How come the DEs didn't descend on their home after Harry left #4 Privet Drive before HBP?
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
J.K.R. definately said that Petunia has never and will never use magic-but she also said there's more to Petunia than meets the eye..I think she nixed Dudders doing magic too(I'll have to check). Harry must be protected by his mother's sacrifice outside of Privet Drive-being something seperate from Dumbledore's charm, at least this is the only sense I can make of it:confused: J.K.R. also says on her website that Dumbledore corresponded w/Petunia before the letter Dumbledore leaves w/Harry on her doorstep. It makes sense that Voldemort would have been looking for the Potters there-I'm sure he would have known about Lily's muggle relatives. Was #4 Privet Drive also put under the fidelius charm at the same time as Godric's Hollow?
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Something to consider too is the need to protect Harry from more than death. Don't forget that the first time LV meets Harry after GH LV invites Harry to join him. Imagine Harry turning to the dark side (as totally unlikely as that would be), possessed or merely imperiused and what damage LV could do through him. Could that be why LV wants him and not just dead?
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Some helpful data in this I think ....

OoTP The Lost Prophecy said:
'You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated - to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative.'

OoTP The Lost Prophecy said:
'But she took you,' Dumbledore cut across him 'she may have taken you grudginly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you.'

OoTP The Lost Prophecy said:
'While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort'

OoTP The Lost Prophecy said:
'You need to return there only once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, whilst you are there he cannot hurt you'
 
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