Would Lucius have died like Voldemort?

Fortescue

Totally Potterfied!
The Frozen North said:
I never got the impression that Harry's protection at the Dursley's had anything to to with the protection that Lily's sacrifice gave him. DD said that in sending Harry to his aunt he was invocing a very old magic but regarding Lily's protection for Harry, DD said that it was completely unexpected and that his understanding of what happened was his own conclusions, it was never stated as absolute wizarding fact.

The protection was from his mother's blood, because Voldemort couldn't touch Harry, but he couldn't touch Harry anywhere he was. Quirrell couldn't touch Harry when possessed by Voldemort because he got burned. Voldemort couldn't touch Harry at the Dursley's or at Hogwarts until Wormtail used Harry's blood for his rebirth. So I'd say that all goes back to Lily's sacrifice and Dumbledore's protection charm combined, but it only had to do with Voldemort.

If I remember right, Lucius touched Harry in Diagon Alley and Wormtail touched Harry in PoA and HBP so I'd have to say that the protection Harry had from Voldemort does not extend to the Death Eaters.
 

halliemei

Time Turners
Adding to the original discussion -- we don't REALLY know what happened that night at GH. We don't know *exactly* why the spell rebounded on VM. We only know that it did and that it didn't kill VM because of the horcruxes. So, we don't really know what would have happened to Lucius.
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Don't forget that we've got 2 different (but--imo--linked) protections going on here. There's Lily's against LV--he killed her, so the protection is from him. That's the one that kept Quirrell from being able to touch Harry.

But then there's DD's protection.

OotP, pp 835
". . .Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters--and many of them are almost as terrible as he--were still at large and angry, desperate, and violent.
I think there MUST have been protection for Harry from the DEs in what DD did because of what he said above. But that protection was different from Lily's, and that's why Lucius and Wormtail were able to touch Harry.
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
I agree Helene B.-they must be two seperate protections and Lily's doesn't "expire" so to speak and even though Voldemort took Harry's blood for that reason-I think in the end it going to come back to bite him in the you know what:D
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I can see your point but having recently pulled that chapter to pieces looking for some other stuff - there is no other indication of his fears of DE and certainly no mention of how he intended to keep Harry safe from them - whereas when talking about Lily, Harry, Voldemort, Petunia and himself - there is the 2 proections mentioned above and as HelenB said - they are linked.
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
I agree that they are linked-it seems like Dumbledore's charm piggy-backed:D the protection that Lily's sacrifice provided. I guess the only proof we have that Dumbledore's charm protected Harry from deatheaters at Privet Drive-is that no deatheaters showed up there. Lucius wasn't the only deatheater to try and kill Harry-Barty Crouch Jr. also tried-I wonder why more deatheaters haven't tried to go after Harry outside of Privet Drive? Does this have something to do w/Snape's comment that some thought he could be a replacement for Voldemort to "rally around"? Or is it related to Dumbledore's charm? hmm....
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Question is - how easy would it have been to track Harry to there?
I think Dumbledore once again had many reasons to use Petunia - one of which mustr be the fact she was muggle, living in a muggle world with no obvious links into the magical world - as such how easy would it be to get the information that Lily Potter/Evans had muggle family and also locations?
The protections cant have been that inclusive as yet again we have talked about dementors in Privat Drive ...
Maybe Dumbledore made the house/Harry unplottable or something - or maybe the DE's were just to scared - or maybe because the most loyal DE's were locked up in Azkaban and the ones that werent were also the ones that tried to do all they could not to be sent there - like denounce the Dark Lord and the likes ...
I think they felt Voldemort was gone and they didnt fancy the chances of going to Azkaban trying to avenge a boss they never felt would return ...
 

itrustsnape

Time Turners
I think Lily's blood (family) has something to do with Harry's childhood protection at Privet Drive DD gave to him.

I think others can hurt/kill Harry; but like in HBP the DEs were told to
save him for the Dark Lord.

As for the rebounded AK (which emits a green light) ....does anyone think green eyes have a darn thing to do with this?

My brain is going to rot trying to figure out all of this.

All I know is, I cannot wait for the return to GH in book 7.
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
Well, don't forget the Longbottoms. Not everyone was captured right at first, and some DEs (in this case Bella, hubby, and Barty Jr.) tortured the Longbottoms in an attempt to find out where LV was. I remember the comment that went something like 'just when everyone thought it was safe again.' I'm sure that's part of what DD was trying to protect Harry from.
 

SnarkologyMajor

Time Turners
Was pondering protections:p last night and was having trouble sorting this out-First Dumbledore was corresponding w/Petunia before he left the letter w/Harry. I have to think this was about protecting the Dursley's from Voldemort since he probably knew Lily had a muggle sister-and could have been a possible hiding place for the Potter's. Did Dumbledore make Privet Drive unplottable at that point? Also after looking at what Flitwick says about the fidelius charm-I've kind of concluded that the Potters themselves were put under the Fidelius Charm not the house. He said Voldemort could press his nose to the window and not see anyone. Also Hagrid and Sirius both found the house w/o a problem. If baby Harry was under the fidelius charm-how did that get undone? Peter was secretkeeper and told Voldemort-but we don't have any evidence to suggest he told anyone else. Once you divulge the secret to one person is the charm undone? If not-then it seems we have a problem. Peter was thought to be dead by everyone-would this be why everyone assumed baby Harry wasn't under the Fidelius Charm. Hmm..this is difficult to explain:( It seems that Harry couldn't be under the fidelius charm because nobody would see him right? It does seem as though whatever charms Dumbledore used directly affects the Dursley's themselves since Petunia was concerned that Harry's protection wears off when he turns 17. Also have to think that the Weasley's house must be unplottable also-why else would everyone be so lax about Harry going there? Of course Harry only has to visit the place he calls home once a year to keep the protection intact-so this would indicate the protection covers him wherever he is at. Another thing to consider is Grimmauld Place-Sirius's father is the one that made it Unplottable and we're told by Moody that Dumbledore is secret-keeper for headquarters of "The Order of the Phoenix" which is under fidelius. How do these differ-does one cover the house and the other the members of the order themselves? This all seems quite convoluted! I realize this is more questions than answers-but maybe you guys can make more sense of it:eek: I sure hope J.K.R. gives us all the dirt on fidelius charms-if that question actually wins (I voted for the one about horcruxes) too bad she can't answer all of them:(
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
I could be wrong but I think it says either in the books or in some interview that when the secret keeper breaks the secret - the fidelius charm is broken.
Unplottable - now not sure that works the same way - although would suggest so - if the person that made something unplottable told someone, then it wouldnt be unplottable - but would it also break the spell ... ummm
Well the question about if the secret keeper dies what happens to the secret is still winning on JKR's site - so guessing we will get something near an answer on that one ...

The exact timing of the DE's attack on the Longbottoms isnt really known - but look at other things going on - it was big news that Voldemort was gone and the boy that lived - well lived - yet the DE's attacked the Longbottoms because they were told - yes told (see JKR's site - says DE's were sent to Longbottoms) that the Longbottoms knew the whereabouts of the Dark Lord ...
This would suggest that the DE's were unaware of the fate of the Dark Lord ...
 

halliemei

Time Turners
Alz, it would seem that you might be right about them being broken -- like the full-body bind did on Harry. But, I would say at least for the Fidelus charm that it's still not quite definite, as JKR has that as one of the options for FAQ questions she might answer, or am I misreading/misremembering?
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
SnarkologyMajor said:
Did Dumbledore make Privet Drive unplottable at that point?
Yes unplottable or untouchable--because that's the term LV uses. He said that even he could not touch Harry there.


SnarkologyMajor said:
It seems that Harry couldn't be under the fidelius charm because nobody would see him right?
Until the secretkeeper gave up the secret, which Wormtail did.

SnarkologyMajor said:
Another thing to consider is Grimmauld Place-Sirius's father is the one that made it Unplottable and we're told by Moody that Dumbledore is secret-keeper for headquarters of "The Order of the Phoenix" which is under fidelius. How do these differ-does one cover the house and the other the members of the order themselves? This all seems quite convoluted! I realize this is more questions than answers-but maybe you guys can make more sense of it:eek: I sure hope J.K.R. gives us all the dirt on fidelius charms-if that question actually wins (I voted for the one about horcruxes) too bad she can't answer all of them:(
Yes, but if we're patient eventually she will!

I'm anticipating that some DEs may show up at the Dursleys on Harry's bday. The hint that someone who cannot normally do magic but will do so under stress makes me think of (**eyes shine wickedly**) Dudley. What better comeuppence for Vernon and Petunia than for Dudley to do magic in front of them. I really try not to be a grudge holder or vengeful (because both are serious wastes of time and energy and taint the the one holding the grudge or seeking revenge imo), but that would just be so satisfying, because I am also a firm believer in poetic justice!!
 

Alz

Administrator
Staff member
Another reason I would second a DE visit to privet drive - JKR has been very clear that once Harry becomes of age he can do magic out of school - now of course you may argue doing magic in front of muggles will land you in hot water - but we learned in OoTP you can do magic if your life is in danger.
I happen to disagree on the person to do magic late in life - I was thinking Figgy or even Filch - both squibs but Filch was doing a kwikspell course - so possible you can learn some maybe?
 

HeleneB

Time Turners
I did consider Mrs. Figg, but then discounted her since she didn't perform any magic in OotP when the Dementors were after Harry. That's not to say that JK can't write an even more dangerous scenario that could bring out latent magic. I think I would prefer it to be Mrs. Figg rather than Filch, because he's such a jerk!
 
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